<p>Wow, When I started reading the first post in this thread I was expecting a discussion about how great and positive the results of this study were. Kids aiming higher in their education, expecting more, etc.
In my college orientation, I noticed that about 3/4 of the freshman student body (in the college of arts and sciences) was "planning or considering" pre-med. No kidding! But as my older sister who's in med school can tell you, much fewer people will retain those plans as soon as sophmore year. And its okay! American universities pride them selves on a well-rounded education. (Unlike the concentrated and narrow 3-year bachelor degrees of most other foreign universities.) Learning a bit outside their final area of expertise is never a bad thing.</p>
<p>I think an average student, with a great work ethic, can achieve an awful lot, and I applaud great aspirations.</p>
<p>But the recent NYT article about students being suprised that they are in remedial classes both at CCs and four year schools illustrates a disconnect between aspirations and reality.</p>
<p>Let me tell you about a student I know--fairly recent immigrant, wants to be a doctor. Tested into low levels of math and English remedial classes. Struggled through these, failed some, persevered, got through them. Took some intro science classes, because he wants to be a doctor. Failed these. Took again, failed again. Works 40 hours a week, helping support his mother and contributing to his father's household where he lives.</p>
<p>AFter four semesters, he has been dismissed by the school for failure to make "standards of progress." If he'd been on a non-science track, he probably could have continued, as he would probably have gotten through a different major.</p>
<p>Results? Loans that he must now start paying, and two of his six years of federal financial aid eligility gone.</p>
<p>Is this case extreme? Maybe. But i hear similar situations every semester. An advisor can't tell the student he can't take the classes, or that he's not capable of doing the work. He had a vision, and no amount of reality seemed to change it. Now he's paying a steep price.</p>
<p>Garland, where you see a student who should have been counseled more realistically, I see a student who wasn't adequately supported by the community. Anyone who tried what that "recent immigrant" tried while working 40 hours a week would struggle. The counseling needed isn't that he should be taking easier courses, it is about how to improve his language and math skills, obtain additional tutoring, find government grants so he doesn't need loans, and obtain additional assistance so that he could work 20 hours/week, not 40.</p>
<p>I met a wonderful teacher not long ago: he'd come from Vietnam at age 17 (on his own, without parents), taught himself English while working as a janitor nights at the local high school, and spent 10 years in part-time college to become a teacher. After five years in the country he sent for his mother; now 12 family members are here.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Took some intro science classes, because he wants to be a doctor. Failed these. Took again, failed again.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>At my old alma mater, the advisers would have hustled your friend into the Education school, where they cut out paper dolls and have conferences about feelings. That's where many of our nation's public school educators come from.</p>
<p>dmd--of course, in the largest sense, I agree with you. But in the particular instance, these things just weren't there, not right now. Find gov grants so he doesn't need loans? Nope, because his EFC is too high. Why? Because he's working too much--the government thinks his salary should be paying tuition, not supporting family members. Help in math and Engish skills? Yes, he got those, and used up financial aid eligibility while struggling through them (most students start in remeldial classes, which count in their six years aid eligibility.) Tutoring when he wasn't doing well? No time--had to go to work.</p>
<p>Do I think this student could be a doctor, in a vaccuum? I honestly don't know. He never showed the ability, but circumstances made that difficult. Things that other immigrant students working long hours could get through seemed to confront him with great difficulties.</p>
<p>But, should he, given the circumstances, be in school for pre-med classes right now? No, I believe he was ill-served in believing he could be. Not while working like he did, not with the little effort he put into his classes. (Kind of a fatalistic thinking--whatever happens in class, happens, it's out of my hands.)</p>
<p>I spent hours with him last spring filling out FAFSA--I've never had a student who seemed to have less comprehension of what the questions meant. I also helped him negotiate his benefits forms for his job--also mystifyng to him. These were after he got through freshman English. </p>
<p>I know a lot of immigrant students who will be nurses/doctors/lawyers. I have trouble seeing this young man as one of them, with all the supports in the world. And I do know that he is probably in worse shape now than before he started school.</p>
<p>I think you are a little bit crazy. So let's just say that evry1 who wants to be a doctor but isnt very smart decides to give up on their dreams. Do you really think that the poor in africa will be better off? No. Those who are not super smart but have the drive are the ones who will make a difference. They will be the C average students who don't have lots of money, but know what poverty looks like and they will be encouraged to do good things for the world.</p>
<p>Also, I'm all for advancing other countries, but as an A student in America, I'm going to do whatever I can to advance myself before I try to help anyone else. If it takes a couple of tries and a little bit of time, then too bad-it's not like it'll be free for me either. Do you think that Americans go to school for free while wasting someone's time? No. Some spends hundreds of thousands of dollars- not hurting you if u didnt have the money in the 1st place. You should get a life and get over it. Don't stay in the moment. How about you try to get a good job and help someone?</p>
<p>very simple, although i have hard time follow what you say.</p>
<p>north american student: instead of going to tradeschool which would be better fit, goes to university because of high, high, high, way to high expectations. student does NOTHING to help the US economy, and therefore world economy. student ONLY consumes. student eats food and drink coffee grown in other countries picked/grown for no wage. student shops at wall-mart, student makes garbage, student consumes gasoline, student eat at mcdonalds, student make more garbage, student eat more food, student NO PRODUCER, STUDENT ONLY CONSUMER. </p>
<p>the resources that hypothetical student uses COME FROM SOMEWHERE. with NO RETURN TO ECONOMY (student drinking, student failing, student being a dumbass) THIS IS A WASTE. the resources in the world ARE FINITE. americans dont like to think this cause they have everything at their fingers, but when you take from one portion of the pie graph, IT SHRINKS SOMEWHERE ELSE.</p>
<p>north american student that do nothing consumers 45 times in one day what african of similar age/sex consumes in one month! and african person BEING PRODUCTIVE (making resources for amercan student to waste). what american student doing? play x-box? watch mtv? think about it. what that accomplish? </p>
<p>think long think hard about what you consume and ultimately where it come from adn the fact that this mean less for others, ultimately. all because of expectations with no basis in reality.</p>
<p>I've just read through this thread and it seems to have gone off at a bizarre tangent! Of course, some students are going to go crazy at college and waste all their parents' money partying. Either their parents can afford it, or they will lose scholarship money and/or be expelled for poor grades and attendance. In many cases such students need such a shock to grow up and become responsible adults. Perhaps college wasn't the best route for them? They still haven't damaged their country or anything! By spending (their parents') money they're at least feeding it back into the economy. Such students are still a minority.</p>
<p>I do agree that some students have unrealistic expectations, but most will find a better route. It becomes worrying when their parents spend their retirement funds and life savings because they believe their child will be a rich doctor and care for them in their old age. I think a lot of people have met someone at school whose parents say they are "gifted" but really they are pretty average. Students like Garland describes are going to have debt problems for years and years to come and in such cases have been ill advised.</p>
<p>I'm sure Japanese students eat and drink products made in other countries, produce garbage, eat at McDs and consume gasoline. They certainly do here in Europe (though perhaps not the gasoline, since it costs about $8 a gallon and most students don't have cars. Americans do not understand what expensive fuel really is!).</p>
<p>I don't think "Girls Gone Wild" features a representative section of the female college population!</p>
<p>"student ONLY consumes. student eats food and drink coffee grown in other countries picked/grown for no wage. student shops at wall-mart, student makes garbage, student consumes gasoline, student eat at mcdonalds, student make more garbage, student eat more food, student NO PRODUCER, STUDENT ONLY CONSUMER. "</p>
<p>Dippity,
Student is getting money from somewhere. Maybe student works, or maybe student's parents give him the money. If money comes from parents, then they work. Student spends money at McDonald's. McDonald's pays some of this money to its employees (who are not wealthy people). Some of the money goes to construction workers who built the store. Some goes to cattle ranchers and meat packers who provide the beef. A lot of potatoes are used for french fries, so the potato farmer is paid. It takes a lot of trucks to move that food around, so the truck driver is paid. Alas, that takes fuel also, and the sheiks in Saudi Arabia get paid. I am sure that McDonald's executives get a nice big paycheck, too. Maybe they give some of it to their son, a student, to waste.</p>
<p>Is the McDonald's executive a producer? He does not make anything. He spends his day on the computer, on the phone, and in meetings. If he is not a producer, then neither are many (maybe most) workers in America. Since we are an information society, many people are employeed in areas in which they do not manufacture products.</p>
<p>I am sure that coffee growers are not paid enough for their work, and I applaud those who are working to see that they are paid a fair price for their coffee. Nevertheless, if the student and his friends did not buy the coffee, then Starbucks would not buy the coffee farmer's coffee, and then he really would have no wage.</p>
<p>You are right that it is Economics 101. The student buys things at a certain price because there are those willing to sell it for that price.</p>
<p>I think you have a view of America that is not entirely correct. Yes, the part about us being the biggest consumer nation is certainly true. However, the number of students who waste 4 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in college by drinking and partying is really very small. American television does not always paint an accurate picture of our society. A student must maintain a high enough GPA or he will be dismissed from the university. Most students who do this don't make it more than one year. While a lot of partying does happen at colleges, a lot of studying happens, too.</p>
<p>Also, something you may not know is that many college students in America attend community colleges. Sometimes they attend for 2 years to complete their basic subjects before transferring to a university. In many cases, however, they are studying in technical school type programs. Community colleges often have programs for x-ray technicians, automobile service technicians, computer technicians, etc. So, when you read how many Americans are college students, remember that many of them are essentially in tech school programs.</p>
<p>Is there anybody else out there that thinks dippity do is pulling your legs? :)</p>
<p>When was this study taken? Last week, last year, ten years ago, 50 years ago? </p>
<p>Nothing's changed and it should not be a surprize to anybody. Youth is always filled with hope and plans, realistic or not. The is the benefit of being young, life hasn't sucker punched you yet. Not everybody who is heavily qualified will succeed and not everybody who is underqualified will fail, that's what makes it America.. everybody has a chance. It becomes an issue of how bad you want something and what you can overcome.</p>
<p>That's why I got a job a job at a newspaper - to see if I really wanted to become a journalism or not, turns out I do. I've always been fascinated by international politics too, so it fits in perfectly.</p>
<p>I also love photography, and I think I'm good at it considering I'm a total self-taught amateur. But I need to get a professional DSLR to really work on my photography skills.</p>
<p>Basically, I know I'm ambitious, but I think I can make it anyway. =]</p>
<p>when i talk about the points as evidenced above, americans commit 3 things.</p>
<ol>
<li>talk about pearl harbor</li>
<li>talk about how good they country is</li>
<li>rationalize</li>
</ol>
<p>most americans think about (1), dumb americans talk about (1 and 2) and intelligent americans do (3)</p>
<p>(3) evidence: "i know that we are the most wasteful industrialized nation, HOWEVER, BUT.....blah blah blah blah blah"</p>
<p>yes, do-nothing student helps AMERICAN ECONOMY, but at the expensive of what? do nothing student eat at mcdonalds, those cows meat doesnt come from US my friend, they come from plowed rain-forrest fields cause this cheap labour/land. WASTED WORLD RESOURCE. this is what we call 'centrism' americans very guilty of this. only think about america. HELPS YOUR ECONOMY, but ath the expense of what? do-nothing student buys coffee at starbucks. gives worker minimum wage. what that worker do? go to walmart and buy cheap clothes. cotton grown in INDIA, plowed fields, and sewn in seat shops by chinese children. MORE WASTE. help american economy!! but at what cost? RESOURCES are limited. do-nothing student not contributing AT ALL = NET GLOBAL DECREASE IN RESOURCE. cant you understand? </p>
<p>very simple (NET CONSUMPTION > NET PRODUCTION = WASTE). </p>
<p>you only think at american level, cause that is how you are taught. yes, makes american economy go round, but at what cost?</p>
<p>is japan wasteful? YES! very much so!....now i rationalize.....compared to wastefulness of USA, we are little dark-haired saints. </p>
<p>do-nothing student is epitome of wastefulness. 'let me waste more world resources and contribute nothing so i can go to college and figure out who i am" such a selfish attitude, such entitlement. few countries in the world have such luxury. and this do-nothing student in college because of stupid high expectations not in touch with reality? that student only lucky cause the egg and sperm that made him came togehter in north america, and not in rwanda.</p>
<p>think about it.</p>
<p>now that i say this, as american, you will (1, 2 or 3--as above). think about which one you use, and maybe think about why.</p>
<p>Dippity doo - you crack me up. Your posts about your lost love Keiko are the best. I spewed coffee (grown by poor Columbians) on my keyboard. Keep it up :D</p>
<p>I see a lot of unrealistic expectations from kid who graduated from top colleges. These expectations have been reinforced by comments from family, friends, acquaintances. Because the kid has always been such a high achiever, has done well in a top college, it is too easy to assume he is going to start right out as a heavy hitter at work earning a great salary. Maybe, sometimes, but I see alot of them here, at home looking at min wage jobs. Those who do get some sort of analyst, business type jobs are pretty danged disillusioned by their place in the company hierarchy. No one is interested in their opinions or spins, but for them to just do their job, usually grunt work. I'm sure most of these kids will be just fine and doing the work their expectations had prepared them for, but it can be a rough run in the beginning.</p>
<p>Dippy,</p>
<p>You have an odd mastery of the english/american language. Almost enough to make one think you aren't in Japan but just somebody pulling alot of people's legs. :) It reads a bit too much like someone trying to look japanese in their writing style. Almost character like..no?</p>
<p>What the article fails to note, as do some of the posters on this thread, is that the US is a place of second, third and fourth chances. I had many friends who either dropped out or flunked out of college only to return later and obtain a degree or advanced training. My own older brother dropped out of HS, but has a college degree. It may take more than 4 or 5 years and more than one school, but many of us, me included, finally end up with a BA or higher. I believe this one one of the great under reported strengths of our country's higher education system.</p>
<p>you think i american? give me a break. in japan we call what you refer to what you think my doing as the (and please make forgivness for translation) "little tree goblin of hokaido eating rice with emperor"!! </p>
<p>why would i do that? your compliments of my english language are taken with so many accolades on my behalf!! but i never american. not even would i make american for keiko my lost love. she in toronto now with my cousin. my cousin half mexican!!! they baby will be very exoctic.</p>
<p>i guess what the basis for my posts are that soon i will be living in america as i pursue entrance into harvard medical school. im quite certain that as a TOKYO U grad at harvard my peers will see me in a different respect, and myself in another respect for them. what i see of america is so much waste, and what even worse, an attitude of waste. in japan, we are efficient, no such thing as undergrad sophmore senior. we always try to produce and dont live on silly expectations. we recognize the global impact of our actions. sadly when country thinks it the center of the world, they dont think about impact.</p>
<p>other countries see this, but maybe not americans. this maybe why terrorists out to get you, no excuse (as i recall the terror in the streets of japan and the fear on my mothers personna during the subway gas attacks in 1995), however.</p>
<p>i look forward to mixing with you in boston, but i will not eat at mcdonalds, or shop at wallmart. even if you say "dippity doonut you can make union of the flesh and fulfill the carnal desires of keiko if you eat big mac"</p>
<p>i say "no thanks"</p>
<p>Wow, sounds like you're going to make many a friend at Harvard by making such judgements on your peers before having met them...</p>
<p>/just sayin'...</p>
<p>thank you for the encouragement!! i too hope to make many friends on my endeavours at harvard medical school. it makes me feel appreciated much to my favour when i read you compliment and consider my fate in the US ahead of me.</p>
<p>I think there's one thing you don't know about Americans-they don't like harsh criticism. If you want to be successful at Harvard, don't tell your classmates that they are being wasteful by going to starbucks!!!!!!!!!! You won't have many friends and your life will be miserable.</p>