Teens Too Caught Up In Whole College Thing?

College Confidential Community
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<p>As someone who spent 30 years as a college counselor (now retired), I value education as much as anyone on the planet. In my experience, however, I encountered many teens who were overly "caught up" in the whole college admission thing. For many, getting into the "right" (prestigious) college was an obsession, causing students to spend a large portion of their waking hours thinking about college and little else. Their high school existence centered around doing all the "right things" that would enhance their chances of getting into a top-tier college. </p>

<p>Question for the teens out there: Do you find that this is the case with students in your school? If so, to what degree? </p>

<p>Also, why do you think students become so obsessed with getting into a prestigious college?</p>

<p>Thanks for your input!</p>

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<p>Cuz Prestigious College = Job security</p>

<p>is this true? not necessarily.</p>

<p>But I wouldn't call it false either.</p>

<p>Let's take some examples.
1. Good luck getting into Investment Banking without an Ivy League/MIT/Stanford degree
2. Harvard Law School's most represented undergraduate institutions is Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Penn, Duke
3. Harvard Medical School ditto.
4. Harvard Business School = people that got those Investment Banking Jobs -- = had an ivy degree to start with.</p>

<p>Of course there are exceptions, but if you graduate with a 4.0 from StateU vs. getting a 4.0 from an Ivy, you have more mobility and opportunities than the person from StateU.</p>

<p>It's almost taboo on this board to say that there are advantages to going into an Ivy League School--- but the fact is, there is.</p>

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<p>well, if you don't mind sacrificing your quality of life for four years in HS, it isn't necessarily a bad thing to work hard and find ways to get into CHYMPS.</p>

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<p>I would be interested in your overall opinion, in your 30 years of counseling what were the outcomes you saw. Selective schools vs the rest of the field. In your opinion is this more media/market driven, or is there some justification is trying to place oneself in a more highly regarded school?</p>

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<p>Well, I can tell you my son isn't like that. He says he will be happy anywhere and is not going to "ruin" his high school years. As far as extracurricular activities he did what he liked, and didn't join any clubs at school.</p>

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<p>madville: Great question!</p>

<p>Students attend college for a multitude of reasons. If we are talking specifically about professional success after college, CLEARLY where my students went to college had LITTLE to do with their ultimate success. Their ultimate success was HUGELY based on two things:</p>

<p>(1) The personal QUALITIES the student possessed (intelligence, motivation, interpersonal skills, common sense, ability to manage stress, character, etc.).</p>

<p>(2) The level of their ACCOMPLISHMENTS during college (grades, research, internships, writings, etc.).</p>

<p>Examples:</p>

<p>(a) The Ivy-type girl, who went to "Average State U" because it was a better fit for what she was looking for in a college, who got into FIVE medical schools.</p>

<p>(b) The Ivy-type boy, who went to "Average State U" because of cost, who got into a top Ivy Law School</p>

<p>(c) The intelligent "go-getter" with great analytical skills, who went to "above average private liberal arts college," who is now with a top investment banking firm on Wall Street.</p>

<p>(d) The Ivy-type boy, who turned down two Ivies and went to "Large State U," who got his Ph.D. at MIT.</p>

<p>I could go on with story after story after story.</p>

<p>Bottom line.....My "Ivy types" who chose to go to less prestigious colleges were as professionally successful as those who attended Ivy colleges. </p>

<p>Admittedly, going to "Prestige U" can have some impact on getting FIRST jobs in certain fields (such as investment banking). But, from what I have seen, good grades combined with a really solid internship or doing research with a professor have had SIGNIFICANTLY MORE more of an effect than where one went to college. No question about it. In terms of professional success after college, the value of attending a "Prestigious U" is HUGELY overrated.</p>

<p>In my experience, those who benefitted most from attending an "Ivy type" school were the "super intellectuals" who were looking to be among other "super intellectuals" for four years, because they wanted to be intellectually challenged and stimulated at the highest level. The benefits for these students were related more to "intellectual stimulation" than to career prospects after graduation. Remember, the best investment banker was not necessarily the most intelligent student. The best doctor is not necessarily the most intellectual person. </p>

<p>I know that I will be challenged on what I have said, especially from those with strong feelings about Ivy-type schools, but based on having worked with thousands of students over thirty years, and seeing the results first hand, I firmly stand by what I say.</p>

<p>As far as your other question is concerned, there is absolutely no question that the Ivy frenzy is indeed media driven. That's why we see parents taking their 7th graders on tours of Ivy League campuses!</p>

<p>Looking at things from a media standpoint, there aren't many educational topics out there that will cause people to buy their magazines. But, things like meaningless college rankings will sell magazines. Enough said.</p>

<p>Hope this helps!</p>

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<p>truazn: Step back for a minute and take a look at what you said in your post. To you, job security equates to Harvard Law, Harvard Med and Harvard Business. Remember, it is only a tiny percentage of HYPSM grads who will get into (or even want to apply to) Harvard grad schools or enter investment banking. The vast majority of HYPSM grads go on to enter other career areas, many of which are not very different than career areas pursued by graduates of other colleges. Your example of Harvard grad and investment banking applies to an extremely tiny percentage of aspirations of high school students.</p>

<p>So, again, I ask what it is that causes so many teens to get caught up the whole "prestigious college" thing. The overwhelming majority of these students will end up in careers that do not necessitate an Ivy-type degree.</p>

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<p>Very true. You most certainly don't have to go to HLS/HBS/HMS to have job security.</p>

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<p>truazn: Just a note: Investment banking is a field that does not offer job security. It is comparable to being the coach of a top college basketball team: If you continue to win and stay on top, you've got it made; but if you don't produce, you're out the door! Also, the pressures of being an investment banker and a top college coach are comparable. You have to be a special type of person to make it in either profession! Also, if you have a strong commitment to spending quantity and quality time with your spouse and children, investment banking is not conducive to those things. You will, however, have many material possessions.</p>

<p>Also, when I hear high school students talk about investment banking, do they really have any idea of what an investment banker does on a day-to-day basis, or do they simply know that they make a lot of money??? </p>

<p>Not bashing investment banking.....just tying to make high schoolers aware that there are many things to consider when choosing such a profession.</p>

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<p>I personally think fleeting rankings are taken way too much into consideration. Institutions change over years, not every year. For example, Seeing people choose Columbia over Duke or Penn over Brown for prestige for seems ridiculous to me. </p>

<p>As a reference when I applied to school Penn was next to Cornell in the cellar of the Ivies and WahU was not even on the radar as a top 15.</p>

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<p>I do recognize that HLS, HBS, HMS aren't the only gateways into financial security. I'm just merely using them as the pinnacles of achievement. Among all the Ivy professional schools, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Penn (the most prominent one), it's like a huge incest pool. THe most represented undergraduate student body at any of them will surely be another Ivy (as supported by statistical evidence).</p>

<p>Furthermore, Investment Banking = Hell on Earth. Sure. Most people know that (or they should). But some people, I'm not saying it's right, chooses to pursue it from a monetary sense nonetheless. My point was not that Invsetment Banking should represent the pinnacle of all professions (though the fact that you make $120,000+/year your first year out of college doesn't hurt), but my statement was more to demonstrate that it is Incredibly Hard, or much harder relatively to get into BIGBANKING without an Ivy League or equal prestige degree (Caltech, MIT, Stanford, Duke). </p>

<p>Will there be people that are just as successful as Ivy League grads if not far more successful? Of COURSE. Are there going to be Ivy Grads that get stuck with s.o.l jobs? OF COURSE. But as an aggregate, you have more Ivy Grads making more money and more #'s in Law, Medicine, Business/Finance than any other single UNiversity. This is to say, for example, there will undoubtedly be more Doctors/Lawyers/Bankers produced by Columbia than Rutgers. Of course you can't compare the Ivy League to the aggregate of all other schools out there because only "the chosen" get to attend an Ivy. Or I guess, more to the point, the average percentage of a student body at any of the Ivies that go on to become doctors, lawyers, bankers will be higher than at StateU. </p>

<p>But I agree that for those who are indeed ivy-caliber, going anywhere will more or less be the same as long as the person is willing to work. And maybe think about it this way. For the students in high school that strive to work hard for that A and participate in numerous EC's to get into an Ivy, aren't they by that very process becoming more ambitious/intelligent than their peers? It doesn't matter that their objective of getting into a top college can be considered... iono "tool-ish"-- by striving to achieve that objective, they are pulling themselves apart from their peers. </p>

<p>As an aggregate, are Ivy League /MIT/Stanford students the smartest and/or most driven, goal-oriented students out there? Yes. Do smart people usually make more $ than relatively not-as-smart/driven people? Yes. Are they neccesarily the happiest? No.</p>

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<p>Most teens aren't. Most just want to go to a college--any college, really--that will accept them and isn't too expensive. </p>

<p>There are a small percentage (most of the here on this board :)) who a very caught up in the college thing, but even among those people, I honestly don't find most of them to be TOO caught up in the college thing. When I went out on my college visits, I met plenty of fellow prospective students who were only secondarily interested in prestige, who had been admitted to Ivies and were STILL, shockingly, visiting the other schools that they had been admitted to, and so on and so forth. </p>

<p>The thing about the big-name grad school admissions is that you can either look at it half-full or half-empty. When I looked at a list (I believe it was for Harvard Law) of which undergrad schools the students had came from, though I saw the large amount of Harvard and Yale grads, I also saw students who came from a huge variety of schools, including many schools that, while of repute, were not ranked in the top tier of either the National Universities or LACs list. Sure, these schools may have only sent one student to Harvard Law, but there certainly was a lot less competition. Personally, I found that heartening. </p>

<p>Frankly, I think that most people--including employers and other such important people--don't care about prestige even a tenth as much as we here at CC as a whole do. Sure, I'm sure that the big players in the Law and Business professions care a decent amount, but it is my ardent belief that even those people probably aren't as OCD about it is we are.</p>

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<p>honestly CC is kind of an exception. i say "kind of" because yes, there are a lot of students in my school who are college-obsessed. but my school is kind of..different from most other schools. (large number of asians, not trying to be prejudiced though). however there is a significatly higher number of students who just don't care, all they do is go to the mall on weekends. they do drugs, get placed in less than remedial classes because they don't do any work, basically they're really screwing up their futures.</p>

<p>so i'm trying to say that CCers can be a bit over the top, but none of us (i hope) want to be slackers and there are more kids in the US that slack off and throw away educational opportunities that millions of kids in poorer countries would love to have. </p>

<p>my ss teacher in 7th grade told us that, makes me feel guilty about not trying my hardest, so now i do.</p>

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<p>Thanks ol' wise one! I'm going to share your wisdom with the young one and I think your words will make both of us more comfortable with whatever decision he makes.</p>

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<p>Read the NYTimes wedding section and you'll find out. What I read last week, for example, a couple both graduated from Yale Medical School and one went to Yale undergraduated and one went to University of Maryland. So it's not true for a top Medical School for you to attend a top undergraduate school. This is one example of a true life situation, but there are a lot more cases like this.</p>

<p>Also read the profiles of current CEOs or high executive people, it usually has information what path people do to get to the top position, the path to the top is quite vary, it's not always straight from Ivies. Note, I'm not bashing Ivies but there is a lot of misconception here.</p>

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<p>TooRich---</p>

<p>Of course Yale Medical School (as an example) is not full of Harvard/Yale kids. You will definitely have your StateU students as well. But all I'm saying is, that the most represented institutions will be the Ivies + Stanford + MIT which will fill up mover 50% of each class. </p>

<p>1 in 7 students at Harvard Law are Harvard Undergrad. Consider that when the overall admit rate is 8%.</p>

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<p>Teens are too obsessed with the whole "prestigious" college issues!! I guess going to a way more "prestigious" college makes one contented with oneself, and also others will envy him/her.. so is it about ego? hmm..</p>

<p>But being a high school junior myself, no doubt that I'll feel better going to a more "prestigious" college, though I'm not as obsessed as most teens. Bottom line is that I think if you were to excel, you can do so at any college right?</p>

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<p>I like the quote from St John's brochure, go anywhere that when you finish your education </p>

<p>
[quote]
The world is your oyster

[/quote]
</p>

<p>that is where you should go.</p>

<p>Mind you it's not cheap at St John, $40K+</p>

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<p>Well my school isn't that bad..There's a couple attempting to engineer the prefect application. </p>

<p>I'm not obsessed with the whole process but, I dwell on it occasionally... </p>

<p>I never did any EC that I didn't want to. If it wasn't fun in my opinion, my friends say I have a distorted version...I didn't do it Eh, classes wise I took all AP because, I was interested in the subject and wanted to explore it and even the honors classes are filled with dumb***es so it's a nice way to avoid them.</p>

<p>But, with the typical Asian parents..getting into a "prestigious" college is a goal. I'll probably get a handful of rejection letters, feel like crap and end up joining the Army and fighting in Iraq:D (sorry had to make a John Kerry reference). Jk...my temperament won't let me dwell on such things for too dangerous amount of time. But, overall...I'll be satisfy with where ever I go:because I won't apply to a school I wouldn't want to go to, "prestigious" or not.</p>

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<p>It's all because of our dear friend George W. Bush.</p>