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<p>Biggest reason. </p>
<p>But, Duke and Penn above Caltech makes me question USNews’ integrity.</p>
<p>I don’t think US rankings are an accurate representation fo the college overall.</p>
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<p>Lol! As if those 3 schools are much easier to get into than Harvard? Or have, as Xiggi said, less intelligent students overall? </p>
<p>^Number one reason to ignore Fiske as well.</p>
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US News has always had a rather difficult time figuring out where Caltech should fall in the rankings. It’s been as high as #1 and as low as #21. After all, what does one make of Caltech? Its students are arguably the brightest in the country, but it’s a one trick pony with no real strengths outside of STEM and econ. Some would ask why it should rank above Penn. After all, two of Penn’s four undergraduate colleges, business and nursing, are #1 in their fields, and Penn CAS is an extremely strong institution with no real academic weaknesses. </p>
<p>Personally, I think it would be best to remove Caltech from the rankings entirely. You’d get rid of an outlier, and it’s so self-selective that it’s doubtful it’d be hurt in the slightest.</p>
<p>As for Fiske, I like his book and I like his article. I do like the way US News collects data, but I strongly dislike the way it’s presented in a one-size-fits-all ranking. Since US News is increasingly going online anyway, I think more than ever it’s time for a personalized ranking – all of the data is in the USNWR database, and you weight factors yourself to come up with a personalized ranking. Want it 100% PA? Done. Want it 50% test scores and 50% class sizes? Easy.</p>
<p>Of course, colleges would never get behind such a thing. They might lose bragging rights. It’s no surprise that most colleges who’ve banded together against USNWR are those who do poorly in it.</p>
<p>Not saying which ranking is better but I have used Fiske’s guide and US News rankings for my college decision and you can find about 10 reasons not to use each list</p>
<p>My pet peeve is the “Best Value Schools”.
[Best</a> Value Colleges | Great Schools, Great Prices | Top National Universities | US News Best Colleges](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/best-value/spp+10]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/best-value/spp+10)</p>
<p>These schools are a good value only to people who either don’t have money or don’t care about money. I, unfortunately, have some money and care a lot about it. :)</p>
<p>UNC in-state? Now that’s a value!</p>
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<p>Its also very small - with somethng like 900 undergraduates. How do you compare that apple to an orange like say Duke or Stanford?</p>
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<p>Unfortunately, USNews does not seem to agree that the value of its rankings are in the underlying data. </p>
<p>In the past --when I cared about this-- I suggested to Morse to offer access to the data on a multi-year basis or access to the “raw” data in Excel or similar format. Not only did USNews not adopt such recommendations but they pretty much killed the value of the Premium service by making it a lot more difficult to download the tables and the ancillary data. </p>
<p>Obviously, USnews believes in the power of the rankings and believe people buy the magazine because it gives them an “idiot-proof” result a la People’s Sexiest Men Alive. A sure sign that the USNews is just as dumb as the rest of the printed media, and why their days are numbered.</p>
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<p>I agree. I’d banish it to rankings purgatory along with:</p>
<p>Circle One
Olin, Cooper Union, Embry Riddle “Harvard of the Skies”, and the military service academies </p>
<p>Circle Two
Deep Springs College, assorted hippie schools (Warren Wilson, Marlboro, College of the Atlantic), the Ringling Brothers Clown College, and maybe those “Block Plan” schools (Colorado College, Cornell College, and the Maharishi University of Management).</p>
<p>I try not to place too much credence in any formal ranking system of colleges. I mean, I won’t lie; I do prefer colleges that are harder to get into (for myself, anyway), but that’s only because of the kinds of people I think would show up there.</p>
<p>I don’t like the multiple “ties” on the rankings. If the calculated scores are tied, then look at the decimal points, instead of rounding the numbers to give multipled “tied” rankings. I think that USN is trying to be politically correct to the schools. The fact that it gives a ranking should show the true ranks of the schools listed.</p>
<ol>
<li>“They only look at inputs. U.S. News asks colleges about the resources they enjoy, including the academic quality of the students they admit. But the formula pays no attention to results. Does the college do a good job of educating its students? The rankings have no way of saying”.</li>
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<p>This is an extraordinary, accurate statement. Students invest time and money (along with their families) in receiving a college education. To what relative extent a college succeeds in educating its students seems the most important, primary question completely unaddressed by USNWR and similar rankings</p>
<p>^ Some other rankings do look at outcomes. Forbes considers alumni pay and prominence (based on payscale.com data and Who’s Who entries) and competitive awards. Washington Monthly looks at post-graduate Peace Corps participation rates and PhD completions. Some of these metrics are quite controversial on College Confidential. The Forbes results are not all that different from the US News results (but the WM results are).</p>
<p>I think the biggest challenge for some of the “output” measures is to distinguish the effects of the college from the effects of individual student effort or choices.</p>
<p>^ You wouldn’t want to bring up Washington Monthly and Forbes rankings with docfreedaddy at all because his beloved USC does so much poorly on those rankings than USNews so those rankings are even worse. Although I agree with him that the money spent doesn’t directly correlate to undergrad education quality, I think you’d have to have a decent alternative idea that would make as much sense in order to have the audacity to try to discredit that measurement - after all, if they are measuring the total money spent on each student, what else can the university be spending money on for the student generally besides you know, education…but really, don’t bring up rankings with docfreedaddy that USC does poorly in, it just shows how bad the ranking metrics are.</p>
<p>tk21769</p>
<p>I was referring to direct measures of student learning:</p>
<p>[National</a> Institute for Learning Outcomes Assessment](<a href=“http://www.learningoutcomeassessment.org/surveys.htm]National”>http://www.learningoutcomeassessment.org/surveys.htm)</p>
<p>[Academically</a> Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses: Richard Arum,Josipa Roksa: 9780226028552: Amazon.com: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Academically-A.../dp/0226028550]Academically”>http://www.amazon.com/Academically-A.../dp/0226028550)</p>
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<p>Can you point to any studies or evidence that suggest that more spending equals more learning in schools? Certainly I know that at the elementary/secondary school level there is plenty of analysis concluding the two are not meaningfully related, such as:</p>
<p><a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost;
<p><a href=“http://www.publicpurpose.com/pp-edpp.htm[/url]”>http://www.publicpurpose.com/pp-edpp.htm</a></p>
<p>^^ I’m familiar with the NSSE assessments (cited on the NILOA page that docfreedaddy links). Unfortunately, many of the most famous, selective schools have not yet been assessed. Furthermore, “engagement” is not the same as “outcomes” (or “results”). The NSSE examines signs of engagement, for example the number of 5-page, 10-page, or 20-page papers that a school assigns per term, or the amount of student-faculty interaction. I think it’s a great idea to look at these factors, and I hope it will be done for more schools. However, although I assume more “engagement” will result in more or better learning, I don’t really know that, any more than I know for a fact that smaller classes necessarily result in more or better learning. Maybe more engagement in some cases is distracting and inefficient, and so would result in lower scores on a comprehensive test of knowledge (if such a test happened to be available for all college graduates).</p>
<p>The NSSE is great in theory, but it’s not fully baked. It cannot yet compete with USNWR as a resource for building a college application list, if only because too few schools have been assessed.</p>
<p>For all USNWR’s alleged flaws, I’m pretty confident that it is a useful tool for many HS students and their families, if appropriately used.</p>
<p>"After all, what does one make of Caltech? Its students are arguably the brightest in the country, but it’s a one trick pony with no real strengths outside of STEM and econ. Some would ask why it should rank above Penn. After all, two of Penn’s four undergraduate colleges, business and nursing, are #1 in their fields, and Penn CAS is an extremely strong institution with no real academic weaknesses. "</p>
<p>Completely agree. Juilliard doesn’t get on this list; why should Caltech? Ultimately it’s a specialty school.</p>
<p>^ Comparing Julliard and Caltech? Really? I guess I missed all those papers where Julliard graduates/professors significantly alter our understanding of the universe. New ideas regarding the fundamental nature of the physical universe have a ripple effect throughout all ideas and models of reality in the particular society. Music is a wonderful addition to our lives, but ideas in music cannot have the same ripple effect.</p>
<p>I often tell my kids to try to figure out “who’s driving the Mercedes.” Many of these studies (I’m hestitating about saying all of them) serve to benefit the originators. I worked for a college-related surey for a while and the repeated thought was, we’re going to find the empty space and fill it or the angle no one else had yet covered. </p>
<p>The one that bugs me is Colleges that Change Lives. Really, for anyone, choose the school that’s right for you and it will change your life. That means so many different things to different individuals.</p>