I will wave the CC “White Flag”, not because I surrender, but because I strongly disagree with your insistence that SATs/ACTs are completely useless. Perhaps grades are equally useless?
I think there is absolutely no doubt that there is grade inflation at all levels of US education. As I said, the SATs and ACTs are merely data points. However, to the extent that a school uses that data point to enhance selectivity, that’s where I draw the line.
Rather than risk a TOS violation, I will disagree with the notion that the SATs and ACTs have minimal relevancy. Either apply it to all or disregard for all.
Some schools have. You get the special apps from schools like Col School of Mines or Minnesota that at least a few years ago…if you used their special apps that they target were …no essay required.
I am pretty sure that quite a few US independent high schools have not gone back to requiring the ISEE and/or SSAT since COVID (at least not yet). Some have returned to testing. Others have continued their tests optional policies from COVID or asked for a writing sample instead. The same seems to be true for the private elementary and middle schools. It is a mixed bag even among ones that required standardized tests before and not all did. I have no idea about the various graduate school tests.
Let’s remember how achievement tests like the SAT Subject tests became extinct: As those tests became optional at more and more colleges, fewer and fewer students took them. Without the economy of scale, such tests were assured of their demise.
What specifically would a 600 in math “say about an A+” in an Honors Data and Design Structures course? So we are on the same page, here is a course description . . .
Students extend skills learned in [AP Computer Science A] through an investigation of abstract data structures and practical program design. The Java programming language is used, but the course stresses universal programming concepts that can be applied to most languages. The course covers implementations and performance analyses of arrays, lists, stacks, queues, trees, heaps, maps, and graphs, including Java’s implementation through the Java collections framework. Practical skills, such as basic graphical user interfaces and I/O, complement these theoretical topics. Critical programming concepts such as abstraction, encapsulation, inheritance, polymorphism, and top-down design are reinforced as students create complete executable programs from start to finish. Students choose the proper data structures to create solutions to tasks such as spell-checking, lossless data compression, and Markov chain-based text generation. Prerequisite: AP Computer Science A.
Seems to me that acing this course at would be more relevant to this student’s performance in the class than a standardized, timed test which is (at best) tangentially related. This is especially so given that the colleges will be able to look at the grade in the context of the rigor of the high school, other courses taken, performance of other students from the high school, etc.
As for the 600 on ERBW, not sure why you are entering APs into the discussion, but since you did, what if the 600 on ERBW is accompanied by a 5 on the AP English Comp Exam? Does the 600 on the ERBW invalidate that too?
I didn’t word that well perhaps- I said it would say something about an A plus in Algebra. And similarly ERBW might say something about the A in Eng comp. I didn’t say anything about data and design structures. And to be fair, I never said it invalidates the algebra grade, just that it provides more data to consider the grade. Just like a 790 in math provides additional data for a B in algebra. Maybe it was a tough time for the student? Had to work late hours? The grade was based on a lot of notetaking and that’s not the students strong point? Point is added data is not bad.
Agree, but note that the SAT subject tests started out in a more precarious position:
Not the default/incumbent test(s).
Smaller volume to begin with.
Large number of different tests (i.e. more cost to develop, maintain, and administer).
#1 above meant that colleges always had to consider whether adding them to the application requirements imposed barriers to access (note that many colleges that did use them “recommended” them, which was sort of a hint that they were close to “required” for students in more advantaged situations, but students from less advantaged situations may be given a pass if they did not have them due to access issues). #2 and #3 meant that as the already small volume shrank, they became less viable for The College Board to continue them.
Would the US college admissions standardized testing environment and controversies be different if SAT subject tests were the default/incumbent tests, rather than the SAT and ACT? Seems like many other countries’ standardized tests are more heavily achievement-based.
I think the answer is yes. Personally, I’d prefer that we would have standardized annual (or biennial) tests that measure achievements of all students at each grade level. Colleges would receive and be able to evaluate the entire history of such tests from each applicant.
The argument is that SAT/ACT scores are not relevant in assessing whether an applicant is a strong candidate for admission (to a selective undergraduate program) because there are other data points that are more meaningful to AOs.
Meanwhile, no one has ever suggested that strong GMAT, LSAT, or MCAT scores are useful in identifying applicants who will make good businessmen, lawyers, or doctors. Yet, they remain integral to the selection process for graduate program applicants. It is widely asserted that prospective applicants have to exceed the “school’s minimum standardized score” to even be considered by that school’s AO. Law school and medical school applicants can easily recite what scores “they need” for each individual grad school they plan to apply to.
Why is there a difference in how standardized tests are perceived and utilized by AOs between undergraduate schools and nearly everyone else (secondary schools and graduate schools)? Harvard Business School, Law School, and Medical School AO all have a similar approach to evaluating standardized test scores, but Harvard College AO is different? I have no idea why. It doesn’t make any sense to me.
In US high school, it would be more practical to do this by course, since students are not all taking the same courses at the same grade level.
But then there would probably be lots of resistance to anything of the sort based on various norms about what high school education should be like, including “local control of schools and curricula”, and controversy about what should be in the standards that are tested for with standardized tests. Which means that we will probably be stuck with less useful “general” tests like the SAT and ACT.
Testing for business, law, and medical school admissions could (at least in theory) be optimized to test for skills and prerequisite knowledge for those specific programs. Compared to the SAT and ACT, a better analog for the college application level would be a set of achievement-based tests, where those in particular subjects may be more of less emphasized based on the applicant’s intended major (or likely area of intended major).
Someone previously brought up licensing exams for lawyers, physicians, etc., but those are more like comprehensive final exams covering mostly standardized curricula in the specific subject.
I think standardized tests in a few core subjects will be sufficient. They will likely be highly correlated with how well students do in other subjects.
Can’t speak for the others but LSAT basically tests for logical reasoning/critical thinking skills. No reason why grades in college classes focused on those areas shouldn’t suffice. Anything research/writing focused fits the bill which is why you’re encouraged to choose those types of majors.
MCAT tests the following subjects: biology, biochemistry, general chemistry, organic chemistry, physics, psychology, and sociology. With the potential exception of psychology, none of the subjects have more than a passing relevance to the practice of medicine.
That argument basically says that medical, law, and business schools should either redesign or drop the standardized tests used in their admissions. If the SAT and ACT are just as irrelevant, then they should be redesigned or dropped as well.