<p>And if your argument is that by shifting the money we are dumbing down (or making less or "getting rid of") the "best" schools, aren't you making my argument for me? LOL.</p>
<p>No. You don't get better by taking your top schools down but by building up the lagging ones. Also not all schools require the same amount of $$$ to be good. It's far cheaper to run a school with just liberal arts and education schools than one that has lots of engineering, business, and hard sciecne majors. Top schools produce top research and attract industry and development. Mediocre ones don't. You don't read much about high tech development around the U of Miss now do you? But UT Austin has attracted amazing development to Austin.</p>
<p>Cur (and others),</p>
<p>I've been giving this a lot of thought as I have a sophomore who won't be in the top 10% of his class in his rigorous high school program (despite great GPA). And he'd love to go to UT. Alas.</p>
<p>My concern is that UT is increasingly enrolling these top 10%ers in remedial classes. Being in the top 10% of a poor school doesn't mean you're able to handle the rigor of college coursework.</p>
<p>Would a compromise be a combination of top 10% but with a minimum SAT score? I just saw on another thread that the SAT avg at UT was something like 1900. If the law was amended to say top 10% and an SAT of 1900, then that would free up some spots to increase diversity or whatever UT wants to do, still assure space for many, many kids and ensure the kids who go there aren't in over their heads.</p>
<p>Whadya think?</p>
<p>I think if they did (required a minimum SAT score of top 10% applicants), they would lose the diversity they are trying to achieve.</p>
<p>Two unrelated thoughts:</p>
<p>1) Sometimes a kid at an urban school who succeeds and makes decent grades (putting her at the top of her class) rather than getting pregnant, doing drugs, or whatever, is a hard worker and has the self-discipline to study and achieve. In her low-performing school, she did not receive good preparation for the SAT or for college coursework in general. So let's say she goes to UT, takes some remedial classes, and then gets on with her education. Maybe students like her have a decent shot at graduating. </p>
<p>It would be great to see some statistics on students admitted under top 10% who had lower SAT scores or were from schools that were rated as sub-par or something like that.</p>
<p>2) I went to Sam Houston State (if you aren't from Texas, you've never heard of it, and rightly so). One summer I took organic chemistry at University of Houston while I was at home. I had a minor in chemistry, but I hated it with a passion. Though UofH is not a highly ranked school, in upper level classes, it is not too shabby. Well, I had this really difficult professor and ended up withdrawing from the class before I flunked it. After I got back to "Sam", I took organic again. My prof there could teach! It was wonderful. I actually understood it.</p>
<p>I think that these smaller, lower-tier, state universities can be real gems for students who haven't had excellent preparation from college. Of course, if you end up with all the URM kids at those schools and all the white suburbanite kids at UT and A&M, well that's not good. Yep...it's a problem.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Would a compromise be a combination of top 10% but with a minimum SAT score? I just saw on another thread that the SAT avg at UT was something like 1900.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While I understand that the 1900 SAT was a mere example for discussions purposes, I believe that people would be shocked to know how big an impact of a 1900 floor would have on schools that have "great reputations" and are not exactly bastions of diversity. I think that a 1900 floor would all but render the automatic admission through a 10% a quasi moot point. The very large suburban "bubba' schools in Texas would find themselves in a much larger bind that the more diverse schools that do NOT send their top 10% to UT in the numbers people imagine. Their stellar students find MUCH better offers outside Texas and the average student prefer to stay closer to home or attend schools that will be more affordable.</p>
<p>Fwiw, minorities do not view UT-Austin and TAMU as the most congenial place for their race, and are often looking at schools that participate in the CAP programs. That is why there is a world of difference between UT-Austin/TAMU and colleges in El Paso, San Antonio, or Prairie View. </p>
<p>By the way, none of this is painting UT-Austin as a racist or discriminatory school. Considering the number of programs they started to raise the diversity numbers and be more representative of the demographics of the state, one has to assume that the leadership of the school is REALLY trying to find the right balance. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, while UT can do a "little bit" they cannot be expected to redress the vast problems in K-12 education nor offer solutions to SES disparities among old and recent Texans.</p>
<p>However, what can be expected is for Texans to keep pointing fingers at one another for the greater difficulties to land a spot in Austin. Highland Park and Plano people will continue to blame the students from El Paso, the Valley, or even the rural districts that Curmudgeon could describe with great knowledge. Of course, the other side would simply reply ... what 10%? Three of our 100-150 students have gone to Austin in the last year! :)</p>
<p>FYI, TAMU still offer direct admission to students who are ranked in the top quarter of their graduating class, achieve a combined SAT Math and SAT Critical Reading score of at least 1300 with a test score of at least 600 in each of these components; or achieve a composite ACT score of at least 30 with a test score of at least 27 in ACT Math and ACT English.</p>
<p>Question regarding this rather convoluted Texas 10% law: What happens when the top 10% kid from Podunk, Tx (or Big City, Tx!) who wasn't prepared for rigorous college classes flunks out at UT or A&M? Does that open up an abundance of slots for sophomore/junior transfers? Are there similar restrictions for the transfer students? I'm thinking of the UNC law that requires 80+% of its freshman class to me IS. When they can't hack it, the school welcomes transfers from ANY state. Similar in Texas?? I can see a lack of parity would exist in such a large state that has such extremes in school size, funding, etc.</p>
<p>The top ten percent rule in Texas is one that has outlived its purpose. In my school ,whenever someone asks about what college theyare going to my classmates adamantly reply.. UTA ... People have abused the top ten percent rule. They brisk through their education cause they know that ... oh if I take this easy pre-AP or AP class I'll be in the top ten percent . Top ten percent at my school is 3.77 unweighted ..but with the discrepencies ..easy courses ... and lack of discipline... it really is around 2.5. So many people from my school flunk out of UTA and end up going to a community college... another UT... or just don't go back to college in general.</p>
<p>UT has a freshman retention rate of about 92% and a six year grad rate of just under 80%. For it's profile those are decent numbers and would not indicate major problems with selection of students.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As far as suburban kids who happen to fall just outside the top 10% (probably because of not having played the IB/AP games well,)
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</p>
<p>Have to argue that point - at my son's hs, you can fall out of the top 10% with 1-2 b's. This year, the graduating class has approx. 450 kids, 30 have all A's in the most rigorous class load possible (taking 4 honors/ap per semester in academic courses, and a full 8 class schedule). That means that the top 7% have never made a b (have a 4.5 weighted GPA) and they have taken every AP/honors class available. Not much room to game the system;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
They brisk through their education cause they know that ... oh if I take this easy pre-AP or AP class I'll be in the top ten percent . Top ten percent at my school is 3.77 unweighted ..but with the discrepencies ..easy courses ... and lack of discipline... it really is around 2.5.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh, to have a child at that school! thinks wi**lly;)</p>
<p>The top 1/4 of the class has a weighted GPA of over 4.0, so if you have taken academic level classes and made all a's, you will be in the 2nd quarter. In order to be in the top 1/4 of the class, you have to have been in some honors and made a's with no b's in academic level classes.</p>
<p>Like I said - not much gaming. You either study your hiney off or you settle for LSU or Tech.</p>
<p>Also 30% of UT's class is outside the Top 10%. They took over 2,000 enrolled transfers (nearly 3000 accepted).</p>
<p>Ag54, the **** appeared because wist-fully contains the sequence s.t.f.u! </p>
<p>Please note that my comment about the 10% and playing the IB/AP "well" does not contradict your example of the 7% without a B at your son's school. My theory is that gaining spot in the top 10% at most average schools in Texas has become an exercise in maximizing the weighted GPA's. </p>
<p>Fwiw, this also explains why the IB program has found such fertile grounds in Texas and Florida. Could it be a coincidence that both states have some form of acceptance based on class rank?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Like I said - not much gaming. You either study your hiney off or you settle for LSU or Tech.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Most students in the country have to study their hiney off, or so they say. The GPA and rankings only tell one part of the story. Just as it appears in California, Florida, and Texas, the stratospheric GPA do not exactlly match SAT or ACT scores. </p>
<p>All a student has to do is graduate in the top 25% of his or her class and score a 1300 on the SAT and TAMU's doors swing wide open. A student with similar grades is probably bound to be accepted in the RD round at UT as well. </p>
<p>All in all, what is seemingly not a feat to accomplish in Texas is to graduate with a GPA that exceeds 4.0. Some utterly ridiculous policies of weighting grades upwards go a long way to boost the most average performances. One extra grade for Honors glasses, two extra grades for AP, all IB classes being honor, more extra credit for perfect attendance, no final exams ... name it and you'll find in Texas. Of course, if the numbers advanced by the College Board are to be trusted, more than 40% of the students in the US high schools graduate with a 4.0 GPA or above. </p>
<p>That does not stop the colleges to have to offer more and more remedial classes all the while the international comparisons of high schoolers continue to be nothing short of a shameful display of mediocrity for the United States.</p>
<p>To replace the students who are unable to handle the academic load, UT has "guaranteed transfers" for students who performed well at selected UT satellite campuses.</p>
<p>OK, call me cynical, but the top 10% rule won't be changed until it starts impacting UT football.</p>
<p>University</a> of Texas favors flexibility in class rank policy - Opinion - USATODAY.com</p>
<p>
[quote]
University of Texas favors flexibility in class rank policy
William Powers Jr., President, The University of Texas at Austin - Austin</p>
<p>USA TODAY's March 28 editorial, "Texas' 10% admission could teach colleges a thing or two," makes an important point: The top 10% law was a useful tool during the years when we were prohibited by law from considering race in our admissions.</p>
<p>When the law was implemented in 1998, only 41% of our Texas freshmen were automatically admitted because they were in the top 10% of their high school class.</p>
<p>But the editorial also suggested that the 10% law is responsible for increased racial diversity on our campus. In reality, our success in building a diverse student body is more the result of recruitment, outreach and scholarships for underserved populations.</p>
<p>The problem with a system based on automatic admission is that eventually, a university runs out of capacity. </p>
<p>For the entering class of 2008, we have automatically admitted more than 9,100 top 10% Texas high school graduates for a class of only 7,200.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>"All a student has to do is graduate in the top 25% of his or her class and score a 1300 on the SAT and TAMU's doors swing wide open. A student with similar grades is probably bound to be accepted in the RD round at UT as well. "</p>
<p>Xiggi, I know several who didn't make it into UT this year with stats above this, and to get into the top percentages at some high schools really does involve busting one's backside.
I know one who just barely missed. She worked. Hard. She's smart. SAT way up there. Might go for transfer next year but the hurt is there. Parents are beating themselves up for moving into our district from their former middle class one.
Meanwhile the state to our North is enjoying taking the other half of our top quarter, often with scholarships and a smaller campus to boot.</p>
<p>Again. Let's fix the real problem. Why aren't the top ten percent at every school in Texas capable of doing UT quality freshman work? We lack the institutional will to fix a broken system. The lines are too entrenched. You can't blast people out of their positions. I'm sticking with the rural and inner city schools, others stick with the more well to do suburban schools. </p>
<p>But the legislature CAN fix the UT deal with one swoosh of the pen. Make SFA (Tech, Sam, UT-D, however many places we need to appease the <insert high="" dollar="" school="" name="" here=""> crowd) free to the top-most students in Texas. Maybe not ten percent, maybe 1/2 tuition and fees for 10%, full tuition and fees for 5%. Use some O+G money from the PUF. Presto. No more angst at the Burnt orange trimmed house. No more overcrowding. </insert></p>
<p>I could get behind that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also 30% of UT's class is outside the Top 10%. They took over 2,000 enrolled transfers (nearly 3000 accepted).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Many excellent students who are not top 10% are accepted into UT's "CAP" program (don't know what it stands for). What it means is that they are accepted into one of the satellite campuses for their freshman year. If they achieve a certain GPA there (I think it's 3.25...maybe 3.5), they are guaranteed admission to the Austin campus their sophomore year. I suppose they take the places of the top 10% kids who flunk out. Anyway, that's why they have so many transfer students.</p>
<p>My S had a 2160 SAT, a 3.56 uw GPA (yes, a bit low), and extremely excellent ec's, and he squeaked by being accepted as a summer admit to UT-Austin. He is home schooled, so no class rank.</p>
<p>OK -curm, I'll bite. What is your solution?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Let's fix the real problem. Why aren't the top ten percent at every school in Texas capable of doing UT quality freshman work? We lack the institutional will to fix a broken system.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>My SIL has taught at primary schools in Texas public school systems for over 20 years, currently in San Antonio. Her observation is that kids who come to school not having been fed at home, who are half asleep from not having enforced bed times and whose parents never participate in support of their child's education don't do well in school. And, at her school that describes the vast amjority of the students. She also notes that the discipline problems of many kids from these homes makes it very difficult to spend the full time on educational activities.</p>
<p>She suffers through the discription of the students' preparation to learn and the parents' active participation in supporting the process of and value of education at St Marks (my S's alma mater) and HPISD (from friends with kids in the bubble). She agrees that SM is "edutopia" as the teachers there describe it.</p>
<p>How is the state to cure the root causes of the disabilitating conduct of the students' parents so schools don't have whole classes of students from this environment?</p>
<p>I'm not an educator or a expert on education reform. I'm just a simple Texas dad. When someone who is on the frontline tells me the problem is "kids who come to school not having been fed at home" my first thought would be to feed them. But that's just me.</p>