That was nuts and I don't see how it doesn't damage the kids

This is true, but knowing this doesn’t change the effects of the tactics.

Well, except in one instance, locally. We had a particularly aggressive school harassing the kid daily, and I looked up the admissions director’s email address, emailed her from my institutional address, and told her to knock it off, also told her what I thought of her means of making a living. She was immediately apologetic, tried to use the opportunity to market more, I shut that down, and we never heard from them again. But you’d have to know to do that.

DD22 is feeling the pressure too. She’s not certain what she wants to study but she’s pretty sure she’s going to a (less selective) LAC that guarantees full tuition for her ACT score. It’s tough because people everywhere (family, church, school, friends, etc) grill her on her college choices to the point where I feel like I have to intervene. This past year has been rough in so many ways and the constant quizzing of future plans just adds to DD’s anxiety.

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No, I don’t think it is at all. Re-read the first post. I think you missed the point.

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The son of very good friends of ours did decently enough on the SATs, did a few APs, applied only to the state Flagship, and did so early, and then attended that school. His college application period was the least stressful of any student I have ever known.

In fact, the difference that I have seen between the students and parents for whom it is relatively easy and those for whom it is stressful, is whether a student is obsessed with getting into the college with the lowest acceptance rate which will still accept them or with finding a college where they will be able to do well.

Well, the most stressful thing is money. All other stressors related to college admissions shrink into insignificance, when compared to the stress of not being sure that you will be able to pay for any decent college for your kid.

College search doesn’t have to be stressful if you know that you can afford a decent college.

However, to quote your other thread:

There is your problem right there. You made your kid’s entire high school and at least one year of middle school all about college.

We started looking at colleges to get an idea as to what each types actually is when my kid was in sophomore year. We actually only started visiting colleges in which she was interested during her junior year, and she was lucky enough that her AP English teacher included putting together colleges essays as part of the curriculum. We were lucky that our kid is awesome, her college decision was over early. But she also had applied early, and been accepted, to two flagships, our own and another great one. Had she not done very well early on, she would have applied to a couple of other smaller colleges, and seen whether they would be good selections financially.

Most of the strategizing had to do with finances.

Had she not done so well early in the application process, there may have been some stress down the road. But we’re talking about maybe a few months of stress, not five years. That’s crazy.

Furthermore, my kid got into those two great flagships without spending her entire high school obsessing about college.

She had stress, but that’s because she has anxiety, not because of college.

Say what?

We got enough college literature to choke a heard of elephants, but no college ever harassed my kid. Weird.

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It was very weird. I mean they all have those miserable emails where they plaster the kid’s name everywhere in a bid to grab attention, but this one kept sending things that played on anxieties about missing deadlines, etc., and they were just relentless. Literally daily. Small regional college. I first noticed because they were emailing me, too. Winner for best mailer strategy was a small state university: beautiful design, frequent enough mailings to stay on the radar but not enough to annoy, right-on copy. And no email.

No, it was a kid-driven process. The problem lay in exactly what you pointed out earlier in your post: knowing you have the money. I’m a nearly-median-income single parent, and I don’t have enough money to pay a state U COA – in other words, very normal for America, though not for this forum. She was (and is) responsible for 1/3 of in-state cost. Which meant that unless she was going to walk out with fairly significant debt for a 22-yo, she was going to have to work and save and keep the grades and scores up. Which she did. However, given the things she thought she wanted to do with her life, the flagship – any in-state – was also going to be the wrong place. We just don’t have the faculty and…well, anything much for going in that direction. It’s also exceptionally difficult to go from here to one of the pipeline grad schools – considerably harder, if you ask me, than going from a decent high school to the undergrad schools that do the subject well. So I told her that if she genuinely wanted that life, which certainly wasn’t required, she was going to have to want it real bad, and (a) pole-vault herself into one of the top privates that do have good depts in that area (the top schools are the only ones that offer enough fin aid to make it conceivable; mid-tier privates are well out of reach), (b) try to go abroad and hope political situations and exchange rates remain favorable, or (c) fight like hell for four years to get there from state flagship. A and B both require a fair bit of planning if you’re going to get there without money, especially if the fin aid situation’s further complicated by divorce. It’s not something you roll up to sophomore and junior year and start exploring unless you have cash. Visits alone become an issue, because the money isn’t there for that kind of travel, so then you’re looking at alternatives and eligibility for the poor-plane programs and the like, and those have to go on the calendar early.

In retrospect, all the choices were bad. I could’ve said, “Babe, you’re 13/14/15 years old, I’m not going to take your ambitious seriously even though you’ve been talking about them since you were four years old, you’ll figure it out on your own,” but obviously that’s not great. I could’ve been more stagemama, freaked at her for having the wrong kinds of ECs for the field and not shiny enough scores and grades and insisted she change her life to line herself up for college apps, but I can’t bring myself to be that psycho. And she could’ve dropped her ambitions, not tried, etc., but that’s…weird and I don’t see how it’s good.

In the end, her decisions and the actual things she did with her time took her to a place that’s difficult but honest. Yes, she’s interested in the field, but she figured out pretty well what the people who wind up there are like, and just doesn’t like them or their high school EC friend groups, also she didn’t want to do school like a psycho. Which I think is great. Yes, if you don’t like the people who tend to congregate in an area, don’t go there, you’ll probably be miserable. And doing anything like a psycho is probably not great if you have any choice at all about it. So my guess is she’ll actually follow her interests and allied subjects in college and somehow find her own path through. The pipeline schools aren’t necessary because if she makes any kind of career there, it probably won’t be anything close to a standard one.

Despite all that, though, I think the process is weirdly and unhealthily – abusively – binary. If you know you’re going to go to Local State U, not interested in anything else, and have enough money for that (she has friends in that situation, and, like your friends’ son, they had a very low-stress app process), or you just have loads of cash for going more or less wherever you want, fine, no stress, no thought need be given, you can shut the industry’s hectoring out and do admissions at your leisure. Otherwise? You’re a child getting too-personal-sounding emails and texts from literally dozens of adult recruiters every day for years, and you have to pay some attention to them, and you have a labyrinthine app process to contend with. And to the rest of the messages from universities and high schools yelling at you about college and success and scores and tests.

Did she get something out of the experience, yeah; I wrote about it in the other thread. But I’m not a bit convinced it was worth going through for what she got out of it.

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The opposite is equally true.

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I just wanted to have this incredibly true statement posted again.

And this

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Yes, I agree with that. The point is that we lose credibility if we’re against testing because our kids don’t test well, or if we’re for testing simply because our kids test well.

BTW, holistic admssions aren’t even defined. Their definitions seem to be changing all the time. Maybe that’s why some colleges love them because they can define and redefine them at any time and in any way they want. How could it not be stessful if you’re shooting for a target that moves erratically or even disappears from time to time from your view? Most of us who argue against US-style “holistic admissions” aren’t in favor of China or India-style testing. They are the two extremes. And not surprisingly, they both are also the most stressful. Like almost everything else in life, best solutions aren’t usually found in the extremes. There’s plenty of middle ground and it’s in this context I said we should take a good look at the British and Canadian systems.

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The definition of “holistic” per Merriam-Webster:

relating to or concerned with wholes or with complete systems rather than with the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts

Nothing says “winning the branding war” in a debate quite like taking a term like “holistic”, which everyone can agree is a positive, and using it to define a process like TO that is actually excluding key pieces of data such as test scores, which is actually the opposite of holistic.

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My beef with the anti-test movement is that there is extreme confidence in the ability of AOs to ascertain the most qualified candidates by looking at the rest of the application, but no confidence that if you add test score information then that extra piece cannot be considered in context without undue bias.

I agree that more information is helpful. If candidates had to show all attempts, even more helpful. The schools will track TO performance but will not likely share it. My husband and I also think essays should be verified as having been written by the applicant.

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No stress for my DS17. Mid-level stats , so top tier universities weren’t even on the radar. Applied to the in-state unis and a couple of OOS. He just graduated with a degree in CS from local tech university and has a job in NYC.

DS22 is a whole new ball game, and is aiming for reach universities in engineering in the tier below MIT,UCB,S . We’ve been positive and emphasized that every honor he gets is awesome on its own merits - not just as a line item for a college app. We’ve shown him the stats and acceptance rates for these places and ensured that he’ll be fine wherever he goes. We have only visited safeties and matches, so as not to get him fixated on the reaches. He is an upbeat kid and we are fortunate to be able to foot the bill for his education and college counseling help. Even with all that, the only thing that is certain is the feeling of uncertainty that’s part of the ongoing stress, no matter how balanced one may be. I can’t wait for this to be over!!

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Many schools do track TO performance and have made it public. DePaul, Ithaca, Bates have seen similar graduating rates and GPAs of TO applicants as compared to non TO applicants, there are probably more examples that aren’t immediately popping in to my head. Bowdoin has been TO since 1969 or so, and verbally says TO/non TO applicants have the same outcomes, but not sure they have published any data.

For those of you who still don’t get TO, or think a TO student took your kid’s spot, I encourage you to follow Jon Boeckenstedt on Twitter and read his various blog posts and other publications on the subject. It’s likely he would probably answer an email provided you took the effort first to read his well supported findings and thoughts.

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I do not think we can blame the kids or the parents about this process. We are all bombarded with information (or maybe propaganda) from the elite universities telling us that if our kids do not get into the top schools then we are failures as parents and our kids will not be successful in life. These are top universities with access to some of the best minds in marketing. They know what they are doing. They want us to feel this way.

If we are being honest, we are all part of the problem. There is a recent thread on CC about the “payoff for a prestigious degree” that has over 800 posts with many members of this community arguing that kids must get into the top schools or their chance of career success drops dramatically. What message does that thread send?

And I think this community is reflective of the larger world when it comes to college admissions. Personally, I have to focus on not getting caught up in it, but it is hard.

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You are preaching to the choir, but people get really angry if you point out the problems with TO, to the point of flagging posts, so I am going to take a break on this debate for a while. I do have some posts on the topic scattered around CC if you are interested.

I do follow him and do not agree with his opinions though I believe they come from a compassionate place. I haven’t spent a lot of time looking at data admittedly, but I do know that some places have data supporting a correlation of test scores and college success and also the fact of extraordinary grade inflation.

Our public schools here are a disaster with so many not at grade level in Math and English. I wish more focus was put on improving that situation before students even apply to college.

Apologies to all for being way off topic on the thread. The sudden change to test blind and of institutional priorities did create extra stress last year.

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I would like this post 100 times if I could.

I think the need to improve K-12 schools in many communities is something we can all agree on.

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What you are interpreting is not what is being said.

All schools that market (not just elites) highlight their resources and strengths. No school suggests you are a “failure as a parent” if your kid doesn’t get in.

In the thread you mention I didn’t see any post that suggested a kid “must” get into an elite to succeed professionally. Actually the vast majority of posts suggested every kid is unique and that a quality kid will find ways to thrive regardless of school. These comments were often paired with examples of resources that an elite provides that would serve as potential contributing factors as to why elites are so over represented in certain prestigious professions.

I understand people being frustrated and disappointed by an idiosyncratic and opaque system but as parents we shouldn’t perpetuate a false narrative that portrays our kids as victims of societal “propaganda”. First world problem when your kid has to “settle” for a non top 20 school.

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I disagree with this. I think this community is not reflective of the larger world. Elite or bust mentality/fallacy is much more common here than in the real world. But its still a small portion of the people who come to this site. Look at the Class of 20xx threads. Few kids heading to/focussed on “elites” but most are not.

Anyone who is concerned with the “elite” or bust mentality/fallacy would be best served avoiding this site. Spend time in the real world. You likely won’t have a problem finding people who are not similarly obsessed. And if you live in an area where obsession is the norm (extremely small number of places are), you likely picked that location. That is on you.

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Out of all of my kids, ds16 was probably my lowest performing HS student. He struggled with executive function issues that wasn’t on our radar until junior year. He managed to get a 30 on the ACT with the help of a tutor, and squeezed out a 3.4 GPA. His college of choice, an in state public, offered ED, he got in, so only 1 application. He got a job offer from the company he interned with senior year. I suspect he will have grossed 6 figures this year. He has always had a very strong work ethic (first job at 14, 2 PT jobs at college, FT jobs summers), and he’s very personable. Plus, he doesn’t stress. I wish the journey could’ve been this easy for all of my kids.

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