Well, I don’t think that putting together a realistic set of safety and match schools is too much to ask. They maybe completely off base on the reaches for various reasons that have been discussed, but the safety and match schools are something students should be able to do on their own.
3 Likes
I don’t think this is the right way to look at it. I know from the other thread that your child attends a tippy top school and I’m sure s/he is highly deserving. My son had a similarly desirable outcome when he applied a few years ago and I certainly don’t think he didn’t deserve it.
Criticism of a college’s admission policy isn’t equivalent to saying that most students admitted under the policy aren’t deserving. AOs aren’t super humans, though. With tens of thousands of applications, little time, and often incomplete and inconsistent data, errors in judgment are unavoidable.
1 Like
“ When students learn that adults they don’t know are there to prey on them, they carry that into their own lives as reasonable ways of behaving in the world, and this helps nothing. ”
“ I really fail to see why this sort of scheming and gaming should be necessary for a 16-year-old to do.“
Sorry I misconstrued your earlier comments above as suggesting victimization and a system that is manipulated.
“ Er…I can’t speak for others, but my posts have not run along these lines. What I hear above, though, is “I won fair and square, no fair to knock me down for it.” Bully for you? You won, hooray.”
I don’t internalize my kids successes or failures and embrace them as mine. They are their experiences not mine. So no I didn’t win regardless of what you think you heard.
Specifically, my two kids at amazingly average schools were at schools that suited their ambitions and abilities perfectly. Similarly my unhooked kid at an Ivy is at a school seemingly consistent with his goals and work ethic. The Ivy kid never thinks “horray I won” nor do his siblings from less selective schools suggest their brother didn’t earn it or that they were victims.
They acknowledge their differences and love each other without judgement. The one who had elite ambitions but fell short openly now comments that he wound up where he belonged and recognizes in hind site that while competitive his declines were fair.
Why should they be so intimately acquainted with the workings of various universities – without ever having gone to university themselves, mind – that they can tell the academic and social differences between, say, a Tulane and a U Mich? A Reed and a Pomona and a Cal? An Emory, a UVa, and a Williams?
Do they not have other things to do?
1 Like
I completely agree with your comments and I think reasonable people see it as you describe. Of course errors are made and the system is imperfect.
The leap I won’t make is when people imply the system is corrupt, random and or deliberately deceptive.
As I mention in the other post I don’t just have one kid as people infer. On CC however amazing normal kids like my others never seem to get discussed in such pejorative terms.
It is not necessary because it is not necessary to attend a T20 university to live a happy and successful life. It only becomes “necessary” to learn how the process works if a student/family determines it is necessary to attend a T20 and only a T20. At that point, the kids or parents better be smart enough and diligent enough to figure things out. Otherwise, they will blame their failure on nebulous fictitious reasons like Holistic Policies.
13 Likes
Yeah, we’ve been over this one, and it’s a take that makes sense only if you’re wealthy enough that fin aid isn’t in the end going to determine where you can go. See upthread about privates fancy and not, and fin aid that can make college there cheaper than in-state at the public U.
1 Like
No need for me to go upthread. I was responding to what you just posted. Perhaps it might be helpful for you to go upthread and read the responses to those posts to which you refer. Right now, every post is repeating something said upthread and this thread seems to be circling and circling and circling the drain.
1 Like
Sorry, can you point to what you’re talking about here? I’m not seeing anything like that on this thread so far.
It is imbedded in the one prior to the one you have quoted.
That’s just not true. My oldest attends a great SLAC (not a NESCAC one) and with merit aid alone the cost came in substantially below our state flagship. I know other people on this board that have also found that to be so @EconPop for one, though his son isn’t at a SLAC, but rather an excellent small university that gave great merit and need based aid (if my memory is correct).
Getting very good to great aid is not solely in the purview of 100% meets need/need-based only financial aid. No one needs to apply to T20 schools because “those are the only good financial aid” schools.
3 Likes
Okay, so the schools aren’t that forthcoming about their hooks, aren’t they? May I even say “deliberately misleading”?
I look at Harvard’s website and come up with
“ Academic accomplishment in high school is important, but the Admissions Committee also considers many other criteria, such as community involvement, leadership and distinction in extracurricular activities, and personal qualities and character.”
Where does it say: the one factor that trumps everything is how rich and famous your daddy is. That being a legacy increase your statistical chances from 5% to 30%? Being a recruited athlete to 80%?
The FAQ: “ Is there a separate admissions process for prospective athletes?”
The answer: “ No. We encourage students with athletic talent to contact our Athletic Department for information about any of Harvard’s 42 varsity athletic teams.”
That No is…not quite an outrageous lie…well, actually I’d say it is, yes.
FAQ: “ Are my chances of admission enhanced if a relative has attended Harvard?”
Answer:” The application process is the same for all candidates. Among a group of similarly distinguished applicants, the daughters and sons of Harvard College alumni/ae may receive an additional look.”
Sorry, anything but “yes, it makes you exactly 6 times as likely to be admitted…” is…um.
So students must know that if they are not in the top percentiles of achievement, they needn’t even apply?
FAQ: “Do I need certain grades or marks to be considered for admission?”
Answer:
“We do seek students who achieve at a high level, and most admitted students rank in the top 10-15% of their graduating classes.”
Tell me how any 17 year old is supposed to understand how elite college admissions, and the hooks that determine allocation of about 50% of seats, really works.
8 Likes
Right, that’s exactly the point. If you’re a normal American family and a few K are significant for you, you can’t afford to shrug and say “State U, no stress, done.” You’re going to have to pay attention to the whole onslaught of aggressive marketing from private schools that could, potentially, make college affordable for you, even though you’re definitely not aiming at T20. So the stress and morass of sorting through and trying to understand and work through the app competitions comes for very ordinary students, not just the “Ivy or die” types.
None of this, incidentally, would be necessary if we still funded public higher ed to the point where kids could in fact pay for it with an ordinary summer job. (I guess we’d have to fix that min wage problem, too.)
Okay…I guess I don’t see how saying that the admissions process is abusive, predatory, and generally horrific takes anything away from your kids’ accomplishments. That’s about the adults, not the kids. And I apologize, I thought you were talking in the last part about yourself, not your kids.
No offense at all my Ivy son has a serious girlfriend anyway. My other 2 non elites however are available and like dating (slightly) older women with strong convictions and opinions😀
When reading your post I keep stumbling upon your usage of the word normal and I assume that you consider your Ivy (or other super selective college) attending kid exceptional rather than abnormal. There is a lot to unpack in the dichotomy of normal vs exceptional human beings and where they belong. I will not share my thoughts as I am not sure what you meant by your word usage except to say that exceptional human beings (at least here on CC) seem to desire personal monetary success more than anything (and they are told that an elite college degree is the way to arrive at that goal) which makes me think they are more normal than exceptional.
As to the original OP, I agree that the system in the US is a little bonkers both for the small percentage of students chasing prestige, and for many families that are not in a position to comfortably afford their in state option. And the system is definitely deceptive and opaque (my kid received an invitation to apply from Harvard as I assume many other kids did; when will their acceptance rate be low enough do you think? I’m not even going to comment on the U of Chicago marketing extravaganza). As a European, however, I love the community colleges, the second chances, the flexibility that the US system affords its students. Just spoke with my nephew in Europe who after a couple of years in engineering decided it was not for him. He finds himself more than a little stuck.
6 Likes
What would happen if an adult (let alone a 17 year old) were asked to buy another product or service with a disclosure as vague (or even misleading) as this? Wouldn’t we all be crying foul?
3 Likes
I actually used the term normal to avoid over using the term non elite (which I hate) when referencing my other kids. My kids are individuals so I rarely find myself compelled to define them in such stark terms.
I also think your second point embodies the sort of knee jerk vilification of Ivy kids I have referenced. You only know one thing about my son (the athletic conference of his college) yet you generalize that he is monetarily driven and your use of the term “personal” implies selfish.
Completely wrong and ironic given his backstory (which I will keep private). Your inferences about him however say far less about him then they serve to display your biases and lack of awareness.
Don’t insult any of my kids please!
3 Likes
I guess I forgot to mention in my post that I completely agreed with the point you made in your post that I quoted above. I would never dream of insulting your kid or any other kid. I am a casual observer on CC (which has helped me a lot in figuring out the US higher education system) and I based my observations on posts that I have read here. I touched a nerve and I apologize.
3 Likes
I really don’t think that’s in there…I’m not seeing these insults you keep seeing, I’m sorry. Teleia mentioned “exceptional” people on CC – I don’t see that that’s a reference to your kids.
3 Likes