The Affirmative Action Thread

College Confidential Community
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<p>Derrick,</p>

<p>You've mentioned many problems that our nation still faces. Yet, these problems do not justify preferentially treating the children of Black immigrants or the children of the Black middle class. These groups are the overwhelming beneficiaries of racial preferences. What's more, these problems do not justify treating Asians poorly because of their "current [high] levels" in top tier schools.</p>

<p>Blacks were grossly mistreated in our nation for centuries. Instead of working to preferentially treat a subset of Blacks, some of whom are immigrants, we should find ways to make sure that they are treated equally as Americans, regardless of their skin color.</p>

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<p>I do believe that Affirmative Action needs to be tweaked, but I do believe that it is still necessary. </p>

<p>It seems that people talk about AA says it's to correct only things in the past, but it's also to correct things in the present. </p>

<p>For example
<a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/29/national/main575685.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/29/national/main575685.shtml&lt;/a>
shows that having a "black-sounding" WILL hinder callbacks from resumes. So with the black candidates that actually show up, they probably won't get hired anyways because it just takes that much longer to find out they are black. </p>

<p>I believe that graduating from an elite university with a decent GPA for a black student could offset something like this. </p>

<p>Besides black students at top university still don't match the national population percentage, so I do not believe it has gotten out of control yet.</p>

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<p>"Yet, these problems do not justify preferentially treating the children of Black immigrants or the children of the Black middle class. These groups are the overwhelming beneficiaries of racial preferences. What's more, these problems do not justify treating Asians poorly because of their "current [high] levels" in top tier schools." </p>

<p>This sort of vapid statement does not even warrant a response, however ask yourself this- does a bigot employer make a distinction between the black whose family has worked it's way from poverty to the middle class? Or the black immigrant who came to this country only to suffer the same social stigmas than an American black would? In the eyes of society, anyone who is black is inextricably linked to the wrongs of the past. Remember that people like Marcus Garvey were not American born, but they suffered the same iniquities.</p>

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<p>derricka...agreed.</p>

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<p>Derrick,</p>

<p>Actually, a bigot employer would make a distinction. Americans, whether they are bigots, guilt-ridden, or progressives, love to be fair. (They are not unique in this regard.) In the case of our hypothetical bigot employer, he would view the Black immigrant in far more positive terms. He would likely describe him as polite, open, approachable, and hard-working, and he would likely describe the Black American oppositely.</p>

<p>
[quote]

In the eyes of society, anyone who is black is inextricably linked to the wrongs of the past.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You mean in the eyes of "White-guilt-ridden society," yes?</p>

<p>I do not view Blacks as being inextricably linked to the wrongs of the past. I view them as my fellow Americans.</p>

<p>Please explain why you feel preferential treatment now is necessary to compensate for historic unequal treatment. Do you feel there is a need to "get even?"</p>

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<p>I think most people are missing the point, to assume that these educators are altruistic thinking that people benefit from diversity is at most only partially true, I believe here's the true,cynical point of AA:</p>

<p>1) At all top colleges, most of which practice AA, there has to be a top 50% and a lower 50%</p>

<p>2) When prestigious firms (i.e. Goldman Sachs) hire individuals, they will not, regardless of how your prestigious univerisity is, hire a white/asian kid outside the top 50-70%. However, any Black/Hispanic graduating with any decency from these top collges WILL get a spot extremely quickly</p>

<p>3) This is where AA comes in, if you fill in the class by admittedly lower qualified blacks and Hispanics (20-25% of the class), virtually all of them get jobs and the vast majority of Asians and Whites will get jobs as well.</p>

<p>4) However, if AA were to be abolished, these universities would be for a majority White/Asian and now a good 30% of the class will not be hired by these prestigious firms/get into grad school. In addition, the college body will be primarily filled with 3.8+, 2200+ SAT scorers who have never been in the bottom 90% of ANYTHING, much less bottom 30%. That is bound to create stress and could even increase sad things that could range from drug usage to suicide. However, since a good portion of URMS matriculating know they are not at the top everything (a good majority have 600s in more than one section of the SAT and some with sub 10% rank) they "know how to deal" better with dissapointment and failure than the aforemention kids.</p>

<p>5) Now, you have to wonder, where are those that are not even admitted due to AA are matriculate to. Most matriculate to other Ivies/ top schools if they diversify which schools they apply to. If not, they end up at their top state publics and will still get these money making jobs and or get into a top grad school</p>

<p>6) These assumptions were based on Blacks and Hispanics get prefential treatment in the admissions process, and are thus weaker students at the college. Furthermore, most of them end up being in the bottom 50-70% of the class.</p>

<p>7) In conclusion, AA is quite beneficial on most levels. It helps the college maintain the air of diversity, have many kids go on to top graduate career paths/ get good jobs, and helps it have a content "lower 30-50%" ranking class. It helps the AA admits easily because of their admission and pretty much guaranteed admission into top graduate career paths. It helps the whites and asian admits because a majority of them will also be able to pursue theses things listed above. It also could save the "borderline applicants" from matriculating to these top collges and wasting money not being able to obtain a lucrative post-undergrad experience. In short, AA hurts your chances of being admitted to undergraduate school if you're Asian however it helps your chances in general in getting secure career placement.</p>

<p>8) Most importantly, like it or not, it's not gonna change at any private schools. One is wasting his/her time complaning about it; there are way more racist institutions in the U.S. (such as Golf/Country clubs that are only open to white male protestants) yet no one has ever sued those groups.</p>

<p>9) Thanks for listening to my long post.</p>

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<p>Also, DerrickA, did you just say "bigots......love to be fair"? Am I the only one who sees irony there?</p>

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<p>
[quote]

Also, DerrickA, did you just say "bigots......love to be fair"? Am I the only one who sees irony there?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Neither he nor I said that, but I have said something similar to that.</p>

<p>I said **Americans, whether they are bigots, guilt-ridden, or progressives, **love to be fair.**</p>

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<p>norcal: "it makes sense to address the problem not at the college level but at the secondary and pre-secondary level. Affirmative action actually deters progress from being made in those areas because politicians (and even the URM's themselves) become complacent with quoting the high African American graduation rates at Harvard. For every kid that gets into Harvard, there are many more who want to go to college but can't. They don't care about the Ivy Leagues. They just want to go to college and get the education their parents never had. Those are the kids we should be helping. Sadly, affirmative action does nothing for them."</p>

<p>This is the right idea. Also, educators, community leaders,... need to reach out and help African American parents with issues related to education.</p>

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<p>Oh, whoops, I meant to direct that to you. But still you said Americans, no mattter who they are, including bigots, love to be fair. By definition, a bigot is not fair, fabrizio.</p>

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<p>Fred,</p>

<p>Our posts are not in conflict with each other.</p>

<p>Bigots aren't fair, but they like to think they are. Hence, he treats a Black immigrant more positively than a native-born Black American. He thinks he's fair, but is he?</p>

<p>No.</p>

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<p>This might be a stupid question, but here goes: How different do you think the "results" would be if an income-based instead of race-base affirmative action were enforced? </p>

<p>Would this change the makeup of the student body drastically because most of the URM students who benefit from AA hail from the middle class and would no longer get in without AA?</p>

<p>Or would colleges obtain the same "results" but with a clear conscience, as most AA, URM students are in the lower income bracket and so would still benefit from an income-based affirmative action?</p>

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<p>Lalalalalalalalalalala</p>

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<p>no, john, there are like twelve things wrong with what you just said.</p>

<p>Income based AA is already practiced</p>

<p>Most of students who benefit from AA are NOT from the middle/upper middle class, thats only true at the top 10 or so colleges.</p>

<p>It would change the student body drastically because what your saying is basically just eliminate AA because income based is already practiced.</p>

<p>No colleges wouldn't obtain the same results because there would be a significant drop in URMs. </p>

<p>*i thought this thread died.....</p>

<p>The URM students in the lower income bracket would be hurt the most because they are at the biggest racial disadvantage.</p>

<p>Basically for accomplishing that goal you were talking about, thats the worst idea ever. <em>generalizing</em></p>

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<p>"AA shouldn't apply to those who have been born with a silver spoon AND minority status."</p>

<p>my point exactly.</p>

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<p>why not? AA is about combating RACIAL disadvantage, which rich URMs still have, not economic disadvantage.</p>

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<p>John,</p>

<p>It's not a stupid question at all. Just because some people like to threaten a death blow via the "hammer of truth" does not mean that discussion about alternatives to race-based affirmative action is taboo.</p>

<p>Depending on who you ask, you will get one of two answers:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The results will be similar. Mr. Richard D. Kahlenberg wrote "Stay Classy: Why liberals should forget about race-based admissions" about half a year ago in The New Republic. He showed that at the public K-12 school level (not university), if students are assigned based on socioeconomics as opposed to race, a racial balance is maintained and may even be better than assignment based on race.</p></li>
<li><p>The results will be different. Most of the spots will go to poor White and Asian students as opposed to poor Black students. The policy is therefore racist and should be abandoned.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Thus, to answer your last two questions, the makeup of the student body would be changed as campuses would have more poor White and Asian students as opposed to poor and wealthy Blacks. Colleges might obtain the same results, and their consciences may or may not be clearer. The progressive administrators would have clear consciences, but the guilt-ridden ones would be discomfited.</p>

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<p>First of all tyler, I am no expert. I was asking questions I did not know the answers to, not making declarations.</p>

<p>"Income based AA is already practiced"</p>

<p>Perhaps this is true. However, at all of the schools I applied to it was explicitly stated that financial aid need/lack of need would NOT have any influence on admissions.</p>

<p>If you are trying to say that income based AA is already practiced indirectly because "Most of students who benefit from AA are NOT from the middle/upper middle class", then you are thinking along the same lines I was. If what you claim is true, then getting rid of racial AA and instituting an offical income-based AA would have little or no effect on the "results", except perhaps at the "the top 10 or so colleges."</p>

<p>If most students who benefit from AA are from the lower class (as you claim), then they would continue to benefit from income AA. So how can you claim that most AA students are from the lower class, and then conclude that an income AA would lead to "a significant drop in URMs"?</p>

<p>The final part of your post mysified me. You claim that with an income based AA "The URM students in the lower income bracket would be hurt the most because they are at the biggest racial disadvantage." </p>

<p>What is this "biggest racial disadvantage"? It can't be income--an income-based AA would equalize that factor. So what are you arguing? </p>

<p>You are so vague I cannot tell if you are accusing admissions officers of an inherent racist bias towards URM students which needs to be "balanced" with AA, or if you are being racist yourself by implying that URM's have some sort of natural "racial disadvantage" in intelligence. </p>

<p>Or are you claiming that URM will still face a "racial disadvantage" after they graduate because our society is still generally prejudiced against them? This last option seems the most reasonable to me. Please clarify.</p>

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<p>Tyler,</p>

<p>
[quote]
why not? AA is about combating RACIAL disadvantage, which rich URMs still have, not economic disadvantage.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Are you willing to extend affirmative action benefits to Asians? They're a minority, and they suffer from racial disadvantages, too.</p>

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<p>You see, I strongly doubt he would still do that. A bigot probably has a all encompassing view of all Africans, all Jews, all Catholics, etc. I doubt he would differentiate over country of origin-he'd probably employ the "they are all from the same place" or "you are tribal" etc.. Anyways, most people view all African Americans as descendants of slaves, and certainly bigots won't take the time to find out who's who even if what you say is correct. Point is, bigots don't like anyone different from them culturally.</p>