The Atlantic "Rape on Campus" Articles

Parent Cafe
121

Betsy Devos is quite a figure. She has said that there should be guns in the classrooms because of threats from grizzly bears (That is not a joke)

The president of one of the teacher organizations stated as follows:

“To now have – not just a President who has a reputation of denigrating women – but to have a secretary of education who wants to roll back rights for transgender kids and roll back the protections that college students and young women have gotten against sexual assault is sickening,”

I also find Betsy Devos sickening

122

whatisyour quest: Thank you for taking the time to respond, and looking up those quotes. I’m sorry but really don’t understand your point. Do you object to the term “survivor” in all cases? Some individuals have been raped and prefer to be called survivors, rather than victims. Some of your quotes could refer to those individuals. I can’t tell from the context.

If an accuser wants to be called a survivor, after the individual he/she accused has been found guilty, is the term “survivor” okay with you? If not, what do you call those individuals?

123

“The more extreme skepticism that seems to prevail with regard to rape seems wrong to me.”

Acquaintance rape is just a very different offense than burglary. Consent is rarely an issue in burglaries. It almost always is an issue in rape cases. And reliable proof on consent is usually absent.

Emma Sulkowicz (aka Mattress Girl) has it completely right. From the Sunday NY Times a while back:

"Sulkowicz has concluded that “the system is broken because it is so much based on proof that a lot of rape survivors don’t have.”

While she’s right that the system is broken, she doesn’t have a good suggestion on the fix: “If we use proof in rape cases, we fall into the patterns of rape deniers.” So no proof required at all? Maybe we should just fix the proof problem directly. Let’s require students to wear body cameras or have sex in front of witnesses.

You really can’t prosecute/litigate this problem away.

124

@alh I believe that I answered your question in #100. Here’s what I wrote:

“… ‘survivors’ implies that the claims are true (that the person did indeed suffer an assault or rape) while ‘the accused’ implies that the person may (or may not) be guilty of assault or rape. If the media chooses to accept the claims of one group, they should accept the claims of both groups. That is, the media could have been consistent and use the short hand ‘survivors’ and ‘falsely accused.’ Alternately, they could have used ‘purported survivors’ and ‘the accused.’ They did neither.”

Let’s take one of the CBS quotes:

“DeVos said she gained new insight into the devastating impacts of sexual misconduct across America by speaking with both survivors of rape and those accused of committing assault…”

For consistency, CBS should have written, IMO:

“DeVos said she gained new insight into the devastating impacts of sexual misconduct across America by speaking with both survivors of rape and those falsely accused of committing assault…”

(Just one word added…)

Here’s another example, one of the ABC quotes:

“In addition to survivors’ groups and educational institutions, DeVos met with ‘men’s rights’ organizations, including the National Coalition for Men (NCFM), as well as groups that speak out on behalf of the accused”

For consistency, ABC should have written, IMO:

“In addition to survivors’ groups and educational institutions, DeVos met with men’s rights organizations, including the National Coalition for Men (NCFM), as well as groups that speak out on behalf of the falsely accused”

(The snarky quotes on men’s rights removed and the word falsely added…)

…

The women’s groups view themselves as survivors. Fine, use the expression that they prefer. But the men’s group did not meet with DeVos simply because they were accused. They met with her because they feel that they were FALSELY accused. Coverage of this issue should not be biased or mitigated by eliminating that word.

Alternately, go the route of NYT, and remain noncommittal:

“she will meet in private with women who say they were assaulted, accused students and their families, advocates for both sides…”

125

The problem is really much deeper @northwesty. There was definitive proof in the Brock Turner case and he walked away after serving 3 months. There is an underlying nonchalance about accountability for sexual offenses – especially when they involve young white men.

ETA: All the unprocessed rape kits come to mind as well.

126

@collegedad13 From what you’re saying, I infer that in your opinion either: 1. no woman has or will ever level a false accusation against her boyfriend for reasons of revenge, regret or pure malice; or 2. falsely accused men should still be punished. The first statement I find very naive. The second was once expressed by Congressman Jared Polis when he said “If there are 10 people who have been accused, and under a reasonable likelihood standard maybe one or two did it, it seems better to get rid of all 10 people”. He faced a tremendous backlash over this (from his ultra-liberal constituents) and had to apologize. To me this approach seems completely immoral.

127

whatisyourquest: thanks for responding… I don’t want to derail the thread any further. Just one thought:

In your quotes, I assume “accused” sometimes includes individuals who may be falsely accused but haven’t yet been exonerated or found not guilty. It is a larger group than those it’s possible to label falsely accused. fwiw

128

The one hitch I see with alh’s post #129 is that the fact that a person may be found not guilty, yet the accusation may not be false. If the person is found not guilty in a court of law, then he needs to be treated both in conduct and in speech as innocent. But there is no obligation to believe that the person is actually innocent.

129

So why exactly does it matter that a teacher organization president said this, @collegedad13. In other words, why do you presume that the teacher organization is completely objective and not pushing its own agenda by undermining DeVos? It seems to me they should hold back and let her self destruct on her own.

130

It is a mistake to blindly assume that everything the current administration does related to education is automatically wrong.

131

I didn’t indicate “everything” is wrong nor do I “blindly” adhere to a stance…rather I work day in and day out with students who now have to worry about being on the receiving end of an increasing deluge of racist comments while those hurling insults claim it’s their “freedom of speech” etc. Today had a young man think it was funny to bring up the tweet where a certain tasteless GIF of a woman being assaulted was considered “funny”. This as a young female student at the same table looked at me in disbelief. I have trans students who had begun to feel like they had the right to be treated with respect only to have that validation and right to a safe educational environment challenged.

Will gladly step off my soapbox now…

132

I wasn’t referring to you @tonymom regarding “blindly following”.

However, I will say she has something legitimate to offer. I consider the Dear Colleague letter an absolute travesty of justice. I look forward to the day that we move from the preponderance of evidence threshold to either a clear and convincing standard, or letting the police and courts handle these issues.

133

@hebegebe

Letting the courts handle these issues sounds all well and good, but given the police and judicial systems proven, demonstrated inability to handle rape accusations in general - or even process “rape kits” (which are, if we didn’t give them the cute name, collections of -often DNA based - evidence.) why is moving from a flawed university “judicial” system to an overworked state or federal judicial system that demonstrably cannont handle the job, a better outcome?

Perhaps schools need to change their code of conduct to include distance learning for students accused of violent crimes, assualt or harrassments. Simply make it part of the enrollment contract, then there is no issue. Due process is a right for loss of liberty. But it is not a right for many other things, including attending college. Absent Title IX guidance, it will be up to schools to find their own ways to craft policies to try to keep their kid’s and campuses safe.

134

MODERATOR’S NOTE:
Let’s keep the politics out of this please. Several posts deleted/edited. Additionally, if a user finds the need to list a list, kindly give us the salient points or at least why you posted it. Those too, have been deleted.

135

Do people here consider the women at the beginning of the article a victim of sexual assault? I asked my wife and she felt if anything she assaulted him. I could certainly see that claim being made if the roles were reversed. If that is the bar that women will use to determine that an assault has taken place then I can see where the 25% statistic comes from. The problem is that she did nothing to protect herself or other women from sexual assault. She merely caused confusion in an already confusing situation. I think until we understand what that 25% statistic is really telling us many will continue to distrust the statistic and the true problems of sexual assault and rape on campus will not be dealt with.

136

The “statistic” has been pretty much debunked, although it still shows up in some media. If all things were equal, which they are not, then yes, in the Atlantic article she molested him if he didn’t consent. But the odds of some random guy framing a free BJ as molestation is pretty slim IMO. Regardless that is the upside down world of University sex politics. In the Atlantic article he got screwed by a crazy person and a really bad system. He got suspended and it took years to find another college. Universities figuring it out on their own failed. Guidance from the Dear colleague letter failed so now it will be opened up through appropriate channels that should have been followed to begin with. I saw in a news feed that one uni just moved their Title IX office under the unis General Counsel…that is a pretty good start in my book. Many of those Title IX offices have been pretty loose canons.

137

^^^He might consider it assault if he knew it was a precursor to what transpired. He probably would have gotten as far away to what ever the young women was offering him as he could.

138

We are misframing the question about which testimonies to believe. There isn’t any principle that applies to all listeners. Our relationship to the person speaking ought to determine the answer to that question.

If you are a parent, relative, friend, counselor, professor, or medical professional, and your child or nephew or friend or client or student or patient tells you they were assaulted, OF COURSE you should believe them. That’s your responsibility as part of your caring relationship with that person. Your job is to be an uncritical support.

If, however, you are a journalist, a judge, or a university disciplinarian, then in the course of that work, you should not automatically take anybody at their word. Your job demands that you listen to different witnesses as impartially as you can.

If you’re an internet commenter, you can believe whoever you want.

139

“The problem is really much deeper @northwesty. There was definitive proof in the Brock Turner case and he walked away after serving 3 months. There is an underlying nonchalance about accountability for sexual offenses – especially when they involve young white men.”

We are talking about the colleges here, not the courts.

Stanford banned Turner from campus in two weeks, then expelled him. Vanderbilt expelled its football players within six days of the “caught on tape” incident. Criminal convictions followed in both instances.

Colleges do just fine when there’s clear proof. Unfortunately, clear proof rarely happens…

140

@northwesty

Some colleges do fine when there is clear proof. But many hve not. From Bard’s refusal to remove Sam Ketchum (who later police did successfully charge - good on them.) to Baylor’s refusal to sanction Sam Ukwuachu, (who was also later successfully criminally charged), to the Davidson student who bypassed Davidson entirely when she accussed David Coleman of sexual assualt, due to Davidson’s history of poor response to assualt accusations. (Coleman has been criminally charged as well.) or FSU’s response to Jameis Winston’s accusations (Detailed in Hunting Ground - eventually settled by FSU for close to $1 mill). These are just a few of the cases that are so compelling as to rise to the level of initiating criminal prosecution.

So, while there are clearly times the accused rights are trampled, the history of sexual assualts on college campuses has clearly shown it is much more likely that the accuser will have great difficulty getting the college or local authorities to act.

That’s just the history of sexual assualt in this country (and many countries.) And reversing the Title IX letter without more action in other areas will do nothing to better that situation. It will be up to the schools - and the parents paying the tuition - to continue to force change.