I think that focusing on just one feature of a college, such as size, is an error. Initially, fit is determined by a constellation of personal and institutional characteristics. That requires self observation, discovery and honesty as well as detailed research of the options. A forum provides insights of how others engage in and experience of the process, which may be quite different from your own due to differing values, priorities and goals.
There are lots of sources of information out there about individual colleges and guides for developing self-awareness. Use those. Trust your own gut.
Good thread, I don’t know the first thing about LACs. I am learning a lot from you guys. Wish I could find an affordable LAC for this donut hole parent for introverted D.
@intparent , actually just learning for future use. D just finished 7th grade. She is a high stats, academically focused introvert, teacher/parent pleaser. She is currently at a public all girls middle school/high school that is very small.
She loves it and has the personality for it. (doesn’t even mind wearing uniforms)…
I come from the world of just going to the local public that had nursing school.
I would love for my D to have more than that but budget will dictate where she ends up.
But think she has a good shot at NMF in Texas when the time comes.
@VANURSEPRAC : Budget/family income/resources are generally what “100% needs-met” colleges consider when determining their financial award packages. If your daughter does her part in preparing herself for college, your family may not need to limit her in terms of financial constraints when selecting appropriate colleges.
Just wanted to say that whether a given college “feels like a high school” isn’t solely dependent on size. It’s also dependent on the academic level of the given college and the prior high school experiences of the individual applicant.
For instance, when my public magnet graduating class was applying to colleges in the mid-'90s, the perception most of us had of the local large public colleges(CUNYs) and even some local private colleges(cough NYU (except Tisch or Stern) cough) was that they not only felt like 13th grade of HS…but “high school-lite”.
It factored into why such colleges weren’t considered top choices for most. Those who attended did so as they had no other options for academic and/or financial reasons.
And even with them…most did their utmost to try transferring out to more respectable/elite colleges which no longer felt like “high school-lite”.
@wis75
Yes. In fact, depending on the LAC and field/course, they may offer more courses in some fields in greater depth than comparable universities.
For example, my LAC(Oberlin) offered more courses in Chinese/Japanese at higher levels(3 years of standard Chinese plus many more years of classical Chinese comparable to levels offered at elite universities with strong/top Chinese/Japanese language programs) than most universities when I was applying to colleges. Same with offering East Asian history and politics courses in similar depth.
In fact, those were reasons why several classmates transferred into my LAC from top 30 universities as the breadth and depth/rigor of offerings were better. It was also one major factor in why I turned down admission to NYU other than for financial reasons.
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The dynamics of 2000 young adults at a high-quality college are not the same as they are for 2000 students in high school. A strong HS student might be sharing classes and EC activities with as few as 30-50 peers (some of whom may have attended the same primary and middle schools). At a selective LAC, most students are in college because they want to be there. Students come from all over the state. At some colleges, 75% or more of them come from other states (and countries), bringing with them diverse interests and perspectives. There tends to be much more interaction among grade levels than there is in HS.
Regarding academic breadth, the well-resourced LACs I’ve seen offer ~700+ courses in total. In terms of languages, instruction in 10+ (if Latin and Greek are included) may be available at some of these same colleges.
@ twoinanddone. “Does it really matter if there are 30 in a lecture hall or 75?”
Yes, it does matter, if the student is motivated and engages with fellow students and prof.:
Some lac's have few or no classes in lecture halls - the lac where my daughter goes caps even intro. science courses at 32 and lab sections at 16.
With 30 or less in a room the numbers are small enough where student-student as well as student-prof. interaction is more likely to occur. The smaller the number, the more likely an adolescent is to ask a question or make a comment.
With 30 rather than 75 in a class, each individual student is more likely to get more individual attention - i.e.after class, at office hours, during lab section, or in opportunity for discussion/questions.
It depends if the course is a lecture class or if the professor expects students to be involved in a discussion. In law school classes, typically 75-85 students, the professors do expect the students to engage and participate when called on. Seems to be the same whether the class is at Harvard or State U or even an unaccredited school.
I don’t agree that smaller is always better. Sometimes in a small class, one or two people can take over the discussion while in a class of 50 or 75 it is less likely to happen. I’ve been in small classes of 10-15, and sometimes they are just boring. Same people with the same ideas, opinions, outlook.
LACs are great for some people but so are big universities, with all their choices, great for others. I don’t think my daughter, at a 10,000 student university, is disadvantaged by class size at all. She’s had a couple of large lecture classes, but always had a discussion group for one period a week, access to both the prof and TA office hours. She walked into the 200 student lecture the first day of class her freshman year and already knew 3-4 students from her dorm and orientation, which quickly grew to knowing 10 students, and then 20.
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One or two students could easily take over a class of 50-75 or more students as well. I’ve not only seen this in action as a student/been one of those students in a few summer university classes including one which had ~300 students, but also in my brief stint as a substitute lecturer at a community college before I immediately put a stop to it by making it a point to call on the more quiet students…especially those who were trying to fly under the radar.
One or two students dominating a class is IME…much more of an indication of the following possibilities:
Majority of students in class are disengaged/tuned out.
Poor control of the class on the instructor's part.
Majority of students feel too insecure/intimidated about their perceived lack of knowledge in relation to the 1-2 students dominating the class.
Combination of the first 3 factors.
In one Ivy lecture class of ~250 that I sat in on while visiting the friend who happened to be a TA in the course, one student was not only dominating the class, but actively intimidating the rest of the class by ripping into classmates whose comments were lacking in knowledge and/or eloquence per her standards.
It was shocking how my TA friend and the Prof thought this was par for the course when it was clearly not, especially after several undergrads approached me to intercede for them as they were too afraid to go up to the Prof/TAs themselves. Upon explaining my observations/concerns about that class dynamic and the concerns expressed anonymously by several undergrads who were heavily intimidated, the Prof/TAs took notice, had a quiet talk with that dominant student about the unacceptability of her manner of ripping into classmates making comments she disagreed with/felt weren’t up to her “standards”, and made it a point to encourage more students other than the dominant student to comment in class.
We had a dominant student in my class of 84. She was from one of the small, elite schools recommended often on CC ( we knew because she told us, often, how important she and her undergrad college were). Maybe she was always interested in hearing herself speak and the elite school didn’t change her, but IMO she was encouraged by the small elite college to talk non-stop, about nothing, and that wasn’t how it worked at our school, in our program. Good professors were good at dealing with her and she dropped out after one year because it wasn’t intellectual enough for her.
I think my daughter would have done fine in an LAC with smaller class sizes (although she’s a yakker and may have become one of the students who took over the class) and she initially wanted a smaller school, with 2000-3000 students, but has done fine in a larger school and has appreciated more choices for teachers and subjects. The majority of her courses have around 30 students in them. I think her French classes have around 15 students. Big schools can be very small too.
And there are lots of choices for college, so if you want small classes, go to a school that guarantees small classes. Big schools can offer small classes, but they aren’t guaranteed.