<p>lol at berkley being better than ivies. if you’re in-state…maybe. i agree with the guy who said it was all research universities.</p>
<p>Not sure why you state there is a “huge drop” between Brown and JHU and just a “drop” between NU and UCLA. I mean the difference is 1.5 and 1.4 respectively.</p>
<p>Berkeley is as good, if not better, then all but three of the ivies.</p>
<p>IvyBear said: “WellSaid714 - You criticize WSJ’s feeder schools. Do you have better data? No.”</p>
<p>Lots of meaningless numbers = faux objectivity.</p>
<p>The feeder schools data should have included sets of peer schools, not schools arbitrarily selected to represent a group. Was it Amherst or Williams or Vassar or Swarthmore that they selected and didn’t use the others?</p>
<p>Stats junk :-(</p>
<p>Kei</p>
<p>
And yet given the choice, the majority of cross-admits would choose any of the Ivies every time.</p>
<p>That’s not to knock publics. I’m [very</a> fond](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/643757-unc-vs-ivy-debate.html]very”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/643757-unc-vs-ivy-debate.html) of my own state flagship…but really, to imply that Berkeley offers a better education than any of the Ivies is absurd.</p>
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</p>
<p>That does not mean anything other than a stronger school preference to ivy league schools. If yield rate is all that matters, then let’s just scrap all the other criteria and award the top 1 to Harvard.</p>
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</p>
<p>Likewise UCLA is 1.25 and 2.05 ahead of Notre Dame and WUSTL, yet they’re in the same group. Brown is 1.05 back of Cornell but in the same group, while Rice is 0.45 behind WUSTL and a “drop below.” Dartmouth is also 1.3 behind Caltech but in the same group. The organization as a whole seems somewhat arbitrary.</p>
<p>
…and why is that? I can think of two reasons.</p>
<p>1) Prestige
2) Better financial aid</p>
<p>Interestingly, those account for 40% of your total ranking. In other words, Berkeley is inferior in two (40%) of the factors – prestige and financial resources.</p>
<p>What about the other factors?
[ul][<em>]Quality of faculty (15%) — Berkeley has the lead in quality of faculty; I don’t think anyone will dispute that.
[</em>]Instructional teaching standard (25%) — I’m not sure how you would measure this. 4 Ivies rank ahead of Berkeley in the undergad teaching survey.
[li]Quality of products (20%) — Again, I have no idea how you would measure this. I highly doubt anyone would consider Berkeley grads to be higher quality, except in engineering.[/ul]</p>[/li]
<p>Summary
[ul][<em>]Prestige (30%) Ivy lead
[</em>]Financial resources (10%) Ivy lead
[<em>]Instructional teaching standard (25%) Tie or immeasurable
[</em>]Quality of products (20%) Tie
[li]Quality of faculty (15%) Berkeley lead over half the Ivies[/ul]</p>[/li]
<p>Ivies come ahead in 40%; Berkeley arguably leads in 15%. At best they are tied for the remaining 45%.</p>
<p>“That’s not to knock publics. I’m very fond of my own state flagship…but really, to imply that Berkeley offers a better education than any of the Ivies is absurd.”</p>
<p>IBclass, I am not sure how you concluded that anybody claimed that Berkeley offered a better education that any of the Ivies. RML was not ranking quality of education, he was ranking quality of institution. Those are two DISTINCTLY different things. And even from an institutional quality angle, RML did not say Cal was better than any of the Ivies. All the Ivies were either rated in the same group as Cal or in the group above Cal. </p>
<p>As for your comment about prestige, I disagree. The Ivies (save Harvard and perhaps Yale and Princeton) are not more prestigious than Cal. In most educated circles, the majority of the Ivies are considered equally prestigious to Cal…not less but certainly not more. </p>
<p>Finally, cross-admits figures are usually not telling. First of all, they are ALWAYS conceptual and never based on actual and verified numbers. Secondly, they do not take decision factors into consideration. Are students chosing one school over another because it is better or more prestigious, or because they simply got a better financial aid package or prefered one setting over the other? </p>
<p>I actually like RML’s rating. I do not see a huge difference between group 2 and group 3, but other than that, his rating is in fact almost identical to the one I have always communicated on this forum, with HYPSM belonging to group I and then, 12 elite universities of roughly equal quality closely following Group I.</p>
<p>"That’s not to knock publics. I’m very fond of my own state flagship…but really, to imply that Berkeley offers a better education than any of the Ivies is absurd. "</p>
<p>IBclass06: To imply that the UNC is the same caliber school as Berkeley is also absurd.</p>
<p>
[Uh</a>, yeah…we know that](<a href=“http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads/andrew/4_mar07/captainobvious.jpg]Uh”>http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads/andrew/4_mar07/captainobvious.jpg)</p>
![http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads/andrew/4_mar07/captainobvious.jpg]Uh](http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads/andrew/4_mar07/captainobvious.jpg%5DUh){kind=link}
<p>The most common complaint lodged against detractors of Berkeley is that they are somehow biased against large publics. I pointed out that this was not the case.</p>
<p>
What about non-educated circles? </p>
<p>One could argue that such people do not matter. (That’s a rather arrogant point of view, but that’s neither here nor there.) If one is simply going by prestige in academia, however, then specify that.</p>
<p>
I used “implied,” not “claimed.” I don’t think even the most vehement booster would say it directly. </p>
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</p>
<p>
Exactly. It’s common sense.</p>
<p>Why these threads keep popping up is beyond me. They’re more obnoxious and harder to kill than kudzu with gasoline and a match.</p>
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<p>Apparently, Yale Law and Harvard Law would consider Berkeley grads to be higher quality. Look at the number of students they take. </p>
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</p>
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<p>
Considering that </p>
<p>– 6 Ivies have better placement and 1 is on par with Berkeley at Yale Law
– 7 Ivies have better placement and 1 is only slightly below Berkeley at Harvard Law (that one is tiny Dartmouth)
– Berkeley is 2.5-6 times bigger and yet virtually all of the Ivies can match or beat it in raw numbers
– All 8 Ivies have much higher average LSAT scores</p>
<p>I’m not sure how that helps your point.</p>
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</p>
<p>It does, because w/ slightly lower average LSAT scores, they still take many Berkeley students. So they must think highly of its grads. </p>
<p>Btw, it wasn’t like only 2% of Berkeley applicants are accepted to Yale Law and 20% of Brown applicants are accepted to Yale Law.</p>
<p>Dartmouth College would be best compared to Berkeley L&S. The other Berkeley colleges have other priorities, goals. They aren’t interested in Harvard/Yale Law.</p>
<p>I have just readjusted the category for School Prestige to include the suggestion of one of our good friends here. So the criteria became:</p>
<p>10% - Ranking of the Best Colleges (National Colleges Ranking)
10% - Peer Assessment Score
10% - Best Colleges: High School Counselor Rankings of National Universities</p>
<p>total - 30%.</p>
<p>Here’s what it came out:</p>
<p>Harvard 29.80
Princeton 29.80
MIT 29.50
Stanford 29.30
Yale 29.20 </p>
<p>Caltech 28.50
Columbia 28.30
Penn 28.20 </p>
<p>Chicago 27.90
Duke 27.30
Cornell 27.30
JHU 27.20 </p>
<p>Dartmouth 26.90
Berkeley 26.90
Northwestern 26.80
Brown 26.50 </p>
<p>Washington USL 25.90
UVA 25.40
CMU 25.30
Rice 25.20
Michigan 25.20
Georgetown 25.00
Emory 25.00
Vanderbilt 25.00 </p>
<p>UCLA 24.70
Notre Dame 24.40
UNC 24.30 </p>
<p>USC 23.70
Tufts 23.20
NYU 23.10
Wake 22.70</p>
<p>Thanks for clarifying the prestige category, RML.</p>
<p>I should have said earlier that I did like the list, and this updated one looks pretty accurate.</p>
<p>I have just readjusted the category for School Prestige to include the suggestion of one of our good friends here. So the criteria became:</p>
<p>10% - Ranking of the Best Colleges (National Colleges Ranking)
10% - Peer Assessment Score
10% - Best Colleges: High School Counselor Rankings of National Universities</p>
<p>total - 30%.</p>
<p>Here’s what it came out:</p>
<p>Harvard 29.80
Princeton 29.80
MIT 29.50
Stanford 29.30
Yale 29.20 </p>
<p>Caltech 28.50
Columbia 28.30
Penn 28.20 </p>
<p>Chicago 27.90
Duke 27.30
Cornell 27.30
JHU 27.20 </p>
<p>Dartmouth 26.90
Berkeley 26.90
Northwestern 26.80
Brown 26.50 </p>
<p>Washington USL 25.90
UVA 25.40
CMU 25.30
Rice 25.20
Michigan 25.20
Georgetown 25.00
Emory 25.00
Vanderbilt 25.00 </p>
<p>UCLA 24.70
Notre Dame 24.40
UNC 24.30 </p>
<p>USC 23.70
Tufts 23.20
NYU 23.10
Wake 22.70</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>We are discussing the undergraduate divisions of these institutions, correct? If this is the case, then you are confusing prestige with familiarity.</p>
<p>That is to say, one cannot move another person (be it the average Joe, a peer, or an academic) to unshakable veneration when it becomes known that one attends Berkeley for undergrad.</p>
<p>"What about non-educated circles? </p>
<p>One could argue that such people do not matter. (That’s a rather arrogant point of view, but that’s neither here nor there.) If one is simply going by prestige in academia, however, then specify that."</p>
<p>Academia is not the only “educated circle” out there. Anybody with a solid undergraduate education is educated as far as I am concerned. Of course, you have certain non-academeic circles that are just as educated. Lawyers, Medical Doctors, Researchers at think tanks etc…</p>