<p>That’s a nice summary of the issue. Thanks for posting.</p>
<p>I don’t think there’s an answer to this because it’s a symbiotic relationship. Pulling together the best students increases the quality of a college environment, which in turn attracts more good students who continue to enhance the institutional quality. On the contrary, a university that attracts outstanding students which it consistently underserves, won’t continue to attract as many outstanding students for long.</p>
<p>My gut feeling is the students are more important than the college.</p>
<p>You could lock those high-achieving students in a closet for 4 years, and they would START a college.</p>
<p>Interesting article. Hard to quantify value of the “college experience”.</p>
<p>You should go to college to become an educated citizen. College shouldnt be vo-tech school, but for some of the larger schools, it has. Today, a degree doesnt guarantee an education, (Sarah Palin) but it doesnt guarantee wealth either. (Bill Gates- Harvard dropout).</p>
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<p>That’s a good point. Harvard gathers high-achieving students on a campus for four years and dangles resources out in front of them and they start all kinds of amazing ventures.</p>
<p>It’s definitely the students that make the college. If you took Harvard and a random community college and switched their student bodies, Harvard would no longer be the Harvard we know today. That community college would also become quite popular pretty quickly. </p>
<p>Not to say that the school is of unimportance, because the opportunities and resources are a huge deal, but to say that the reason Harvard grads make more money than CC grads is absurd, because that’s not the predominate reason.</p>
<p>It’s the students and the teacher combination. The “guru” and the “shishya” as in ancient civilizations from Socrates to Buddha and the modern pedagogues …
[Rajeev</a> Motwani](<a href=“http://theory.stanford.edu/~rajeev/]Rajeev”>Rajeev Motwani)</p>
<p>In the freshman orientation I went to as a parent, I heard an important benefit that I hadn’t figured before. Today’s kids will not only work at X number of places, but also will actually change fields of work X number of times. Used to be, like my own father who worked as an exec in NYC, you work for one company for 35 years, until retirement. That’s not true anymore. In fact, not only are kids changing who they work for, but also what they do. A college education introduces you to multiple fields of study, and provides personal connections you might never have made. This rate of return is unquantifiable, but invaluable.</p>
<p>In my opinnion both the students and the school add value to each other. A school is always attracted to a shining student and accepts them. So, with the student attending the school, the school has more value because it has a great student. So, if you are a shining student then a school that actually wants you to attend their school then adds value to yourself, because you did something that made them want you, as in saying you have something valuable about you that a school wants!</p>
<p>I think my child is being challenged more than he would have at a less elite school - both academically and socially.</p>
<p>I agree with the examples. But in general, iIn a good education environment a degree does guarantee an education and wealth. (Kyrgyzstan)</p>
<p>I agree with the examples. But in general, in a good educational environment a degree does guarantee an education and wealth. (Kyrgyzstan)</p>
<p>Oh, the students could get good jobs without attending college (if a BA wasn’t an arbitrary requirement of most jobs). But most students attend good colleges not because they want a job, but because they want an educational experience. It instills flexibility, critical thinking, writing, and researching skills, yes, but it also allows people to be educated. And education is a sign of the upper-class. You can make a lot of money as a blue collar service worker (e.g. a plumber) and yet still be considered “lower class” than someone who makes barely anything writing literary criticism. Education isn’t solely a way for the upper-class to oppress the lower class of course (I’m not a Palinesque anti-intellectual populist), but it is associated with higher class status, for better or worse. In addition, it’s simply fulfilling for those with an intellectual bent, those who love knowledge for knowledge’s sake.</p>
<p>^^Unfortunately, many unis are full of students who don’t love “knowledge for knowledge’s sake” but just want a college degree because their parents say they should have one, and they don’t know what else to do for the next 4 years.</p>
<p>Students who contribute little to class discussion and ask “will this be on the exam” constantly. Who complain about having to take Freshman English because they won’t “need” it for their “career.”</p>
<p>A couple of points here. The elitists will always look for ways to say or suggest that they are superior because they went to a superior college. They will carry that arrogance with them throughout their lives. They may be in for a big surprise in the real world, as society’s needs change constantly. </p>
<p>College is not just an academic environment, its also emotional, psychological and physical. Its about growing up in all these categories. </p>
<p>Different schools serve different geographic communities but also academic communities. We should herald the choices. In Europe this is not the case and its very structured and unfair. If you don’t pass the baccalaureate with a high enough score you simply are not going to college. Period. Ever. You will be herded like cattle into a vocational school. But in our country you have many opportunities to attend college: First through Fourth tier four year colleges, community colleges and night school, or programs for adults who never attended or finished or even if they had previously flunked out. </p>
<p>We all want our kids to go to the best schools, but few of us consider what is truly in the best interests of our kids, instead pushing them into the most prestigious schools for bragging rights at the country club or grocery store. We are doing them a grave disservice. Far better to take a realistic inventory of who they are (the kid on the couch) and where they would be able to succeed and thrive the best, not necessarily the most prestigious school. For some, the military is a BETTER option, at least to start. Helps them focus and gain self confidence, plus the GI Bill benefits are awesome. For others, the community college path is better. </p>
<p>As for what a student takes or majors in college, its often the same sort of elitism. As if you tell your friends “my kid is a brilliant scholar in bio-chem or physics at MIT” is better than your kid who is “a history major at State U.” Hogwash. We should applaud BOTH kids for being in college and trying hard to become better human beings. It sure helps if they have a job when they graduate and a clear career path, but even if not, and even if they end up with a job that didnt really require a college education to begin with, it will help them later in life, they will advance faster through the ranks and they are better and more well rounded human beings.</p>
<p>Not to say kids who don’t have the “book skills” (we all learn in different ways) can’t become wonderful human beings, who give to their community and who are highly successful in whatever they choose to do, whether that is a fast food manager, a retail sales person or an apprentice electrician, plumber or HVAC repairman. </p>
<p>I was watching a show last night after the SuperBowl…it just happened to be on. About an “Undercover Executive” at Waste Management. He was the COO and President. He went undercover throughout his company and did menial jobs and met people. He failed at two of the jobs. He was literally fired at one of them. He learned a great deal about the people who work there and what they go through everyday. It was heartwarming and inspirational. NONE of the employees had gone to college, but all of them were hard working people (women and minorities among them too) trying to support families. Many of them were cheerful and a credit to the company and their communities. It was very humbling for this executive. He fixed a LOT of personnel management problems in the process, and promoted one woman on the spot and gave her a big raise. He gave one black man whose job it was to clean and sanitize port o potties, a huge award for being cheerful about his job and making it “fun.” </p>
<p>I do agree that taking Freshman English and any other core requirements is beneficial and should be strongly supported. But I also see the need to help kids find their niche and encourage them to take the ball and run with it as far as they can, whether that is math/science, or history/english/philosophy, or something quasi vocational. </p>
<p>I applaud anyone and everyone who gets into an Ivy League School or uber elite LAC. Good for them. But I reject this notion that they are instantaneously superior human beings or that everyone else is second class or a failure or mediocre. Tens of millions of people in the United States are graduating with a college degree every year and we should be proud of that fact. We need to help them find jobs and careers. </p>
<p>I also agree the world has changed radically in the last 15 years. The information age and computer/digital age has been transforming (and I would suggest to some that it has been highly destructive) in our society. Computer geeks and gadget geeks will scoff at me and throw tomatoes at me. Let them. I grieve for the way things used to be, before globalization took away tens of millions of our jobs. When we had a manufacturing based economy with clear career paths and when people had careers at one company, maybe two in their life, not this 2 or 5 year plan and constant upheaval and uncertainty and re-educating process. But that is just my opinion, being from the older generation.</p>
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<p>I do herald the choices we have, but would not be too quick to characterize the European systems as unfair. If college admissions are based more strictly on test scores and other objective factors, how is that approach less fair? Furthermore, I would not necessarily characterize European vocational school in those terms. Germany in particular is known for its very high educational standards in training people to work in skilled trades. My impression is that a good machinist (as well as a good schoolteacher) is held in high esteem there. </p>
<p>I believe in liberal arts education for all, but think many young people are being steered into college when some other path might be more suitable. On balance, though, I share some of ghostbuster’s opinions and concerns.</p>