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<p>Duke has had recent Rhodes Scholars? Funny, it seems like every time the Raleigh paper has announced Rhodes Scholars the past few years they’ve been from UNC.</p>
<p>tk21769: I’m not sure to whom you’re replying when you commented on the Honors college members getting access to things others don’t. I HOPE it’s not “Interesting Guy” because I’ve “ignored” his posts so I can’t’ see what he’s writing, so I hope I’m not arguing his point. But I’ll say that, yes…privates DO offer honors colleges to some kids, and they do get certain advantages. Not all colleges, I’m sure. But, for example, NYU has an Honors option. I’m most familiar with their College of ARts and Sciences. The top 4-5% of kids are offered their honors track and they have special seminars, low cost group travel experiences, etc. They also offer some scholarships. But no one REALLY knows why NYU awards scholarships. It might be merit (academic or talent) or need…but I believe it’s often a combination of both. Hybrid. </p>
<p>My D is the person that KCMdonahue described. She’s a high but not top merit student (National Merit semifinalist, 2210 SAT, 34 ACT…but not “matching” GPA). I was dirt poor most of our life, raising her alone, no support. But now I am fortunate to make enough money so we no longer want for basics. But I have no savings, and my future earning potential is questionable for many reasons. So we will get NO federal aid, and possibly not even any aid at “meet full need” schools (or at least, not much). Yet I really cannot afford to pay what they think I should…due to extenuating circumstances. That’s my problem. It’s great they even CONSIDER giving aid to ANYONE. But, without a big scholarship, my D will probably be at our instate Uni…BECAUSE they award merit.</p>
<p>They needed to find a way to “keep 'em down on the farm”. Not allow the “brain drain” that is so common in our area. The best and brightest leave for the big city/bright lights. But we need doctors and engineers and teachers HERE. So our state uni actively recruits and rewards intellect. And it works. Our biggest uni is I.U., and it’s on this list. Their applications are increasing, their average admitted SAT scores have increased a LOT in the past few years (I think 40 points in one year alone!). Their admissions percentage has gone down (I can’t say for sure…I’m thinking down from 70 ish% to 60 ish%…don’t quote me). I know of many kids who can afford much “better” schools but the reputation is changing and they’re staying home. I know others who are offered admittance to elite/Ivies…but they stay home because it’s free or close to it. </p>
<p>…just sayin’…</p>
<p>hawkette, great analogy.</p>
<p>I’m very grateful for merit money scholarships. My d’s top choice provides full merit to 10% of each incoming freshman class.</p>
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<p>Admittedly, Duke hasn’t done particularly well in the Rhodes, etc. lately, but in the time it took you to request a link from me, you probably could’ve found it yourself.</p>
<p>Here you go (I threw in an extra one for kicks):</p>
<p>“Pavan Cheruvu, a triple major in biomedical engineering, electrical engineering and chemistry, was one of three Duke seniors to win a prestigious 2002 Rhodes Scholarship.”</p>
<p>"“Each one is an extraordinary person and thoroughly deserving of the award,” said Duke history professor Peter Wood, who chairs the Rhodes Advisory Committee at Duke. “I think it’s interesting that all three of them are **A.B. Duke Scholars **and, therefore, their academic and personal growth have been nurtured and encouraged from the time they arrived at Duke.”</p>
<p>[News</a> Releases, Feature Stories and Profiles about Duke University’s Pratt School of Engineering | Engineering at Duke University, Pratt School](<a href=“News | Duke Pratt School of Engineering”>News | Duke Pratt School of Engineering)</p>
<p>“A 2007 Duke University graduate who created a program in which college athletes go to rural communities in developing countries to work with middle school-aged children was named one of 32 Rhodes Scholars this weekend.”</p>
<p>“Goyer, a **Robertson Fellow **in the year following her May 2007 graduation from Duke, came up with the idea of Coach for College following trips to Belize and Vietnam in the summer of 2007, where she saw a lack of role models and of sports and education infrastructure for youth in rural communities.”</p>
<p>[Duke</a> Graduate Julia Parker Goyer Named Rhodes Scholar](<a href=“http://news.duke.edu/2008/11/rhodes.html]Duke”>http://news.duke.edu/2008/11/rhodes.html)</p>
<p>My point is that Duke couldn’t ever dream of attracting this caliber of students if it weren’t for the ca$h; they’d have gone to the Ivies, Stanford, MIT, etc. instead. If Duke were able to get these kinds of kids on its own (I want to say, “merits” with pun intended), why would it need to pay them a salary to begin with???</p>
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<p>Thanks, you just did. The beauty of it is that you don’t even know it…</p>
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<p>It’s sort of silly to suggest that (merit) money carries weight similar to “[v]iewbooks, mailings, the Common App, fee waivers, admitted students weekends, and numerous other marketing devices,” although the last item seems to work very well for WUSTL, which says a lot about its applicants.</p>
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FWIW, this is probably untrue. Savings is where a HUGE chunk of the expected contribution came from and unless your salary is really quite high, not having savings, especially in your daughter’s name, for college is going to have an impact. Seriously, unless you’re making 150k+ per year and have little or no debt on your home, you’re likely to get aid from top schools.</p>
<p>As for merit scholarships, I think they’re nonsense at very top schools who are not need-blind and meeting 100% of financial need, and even then, I really think that merit money should be distributed by need.</p>
<p>Well, Modest…you don’t know my income. AND…no, savings is NOT really where aid comes from…it’s primarily salary. Trust me to have done all the pre-calculations before I stated these numbers. As for you insistence that merit scholarships are NONSENSE…and that they should be distributed by NEED…I’m going to ask how hard any child is willing to work to EARN their way into a college (through merit scholarship), versus how hard that child is willing to work if they’re guaranteed a paved path before them? Who will SAVE for their child’s college, who will work two jobs? Your first 12 years of education are guaranteed in this country. You pay for the rest. In one way or another. For example…I am now paying for the Federal NEED BASED money distributed at public colleges. Alumni are paying for the endowment that creates the need based money at private colleges. If the brightest kids aren’t rewarded, but the neediest are…where is the incentive to do more for get more? If I’ve worked 3 jobs at a time (and I have), why should the child of someone who DOESN’T take that initiative…get financial aid when I’m the one who paid the taxes for that aid?</p>
<p>I really don’t think this conversation is on topic so I don’t want to get into a huge debate but 1) You’re extending what I’m saying too far and bringing a line of argument that is generally a part of my litmus test for people who are impossible to have a meaningful discussion with 2) I didn’t pretend to know your income 3) As someone who’s family has relatively medium-high income and medium-level savings, I experienced first hand exactly how the savings/income break down works over hte last four years 4) As soon as you start bringing up the “need-based aid destroys incentive to save or work”, especially with the tone I’m perceiving, it becomes clear you’re not thinking about this rationally at a 40k-foot level and are just emotional about your specific situation.</p>
<p>I worked my ass off, my parents saved all my life for college, I still got quite a bit of need-based aid, and if I had more money in the bank, I wish that money went elsewhere.</p>
<p>We’re talking about a very elite class of schools, for what it’s worth, and we’re talking about two very different missions and purposes. These schools are looking to increase access to all walks of life, who have demonstrated they are capable, to their schools which confer considerable benefits after graduation. The idea is to increase access and diversity, tapping into qualified students who otherwise could not attend. They do this by lowering the barriers so that all students face similar “costs” when figuring out the cost-benefit of going there. IMO, this is never about making it easy but making it possible whereas before it was impossible. It’s still a huge sacrifice for most, no matter where on the curve you are.</p>
<p>Your fault is in assuming that anyone is getting into top schools without “tak[ing] that initiative”, and at public schools, your fault is not appropriately assigning huge benefits to having a larger group of students who are more diverse that are educated in your state. People tend not to value improvement of the system/society around them at all, and even more perplexing, they way underestimate the effect improving those things have on their lives. It’s a classic mistake of decision making.</p>
<p>The topic of this thread is “The decade’s 15 hottest colleges”, but I don’t see it as completely off-topic to talk about the strategies schools use to become “hot”.</p>
<p>The use of merit scholarships is an important issue in college admissions and financing. Suppose a school like Duke is indeed using merit scholarships to support what interestingguy describes as a two-track system. The school allegedly nurtures and encourages the academic growth of a favored few, to the relative neglect of students with perhaps greater need, in what is essentially a marketing ploy that pays off in a few spotlike-grabbing awards like the Marshall or Rhodes.</p>
<p>Sounds bad to me. And in an ideal world, all colleges would be richly endowed enough to spread these favors to all students. But the reality is that not every school is equally well-endowed and equally attractive. Many colleges have to make hard choices about how to attract diverse applicants who could not attend, or would not attend, without extra incentives.</p>
<p>Do all students not benefit from the admission of talented low-income students whose attendance is made possible only by generous need-based aid? By the same token, do all students not benefit from the admission of talented students who might have chosen a different school in a different region, if not for a merit scholarship? </p>
<p>Personally, I’d prefer to have my kids attend schools with equal commitment to every admitted student, once they were admitted (however they were enticed to apply). Many of the schools I like best (but not all of them) have made a decision to focus scarce aid dollars on the neediest students; this is an honorable thing to do. But I think merit scholarships are at least as legitimate a device as athletic scholarships in crafting a diverse class for some schools. They are certainly attractive to families on the cusp of need and no need, whose children aren’t quite shoe-ins at the few schools with the highest limits for need-based aid. Even if a better strategy would be to adopt policies that make schools attractive and affordable without them.</p>
<p>University of Florida should be on this list. An acceptance rate sub-40%, 2 basketball & 2 football national championships, also has raised almost a billion dollars in only a few years into the latest capitol campaign.</p>
<p>Interesting list, although I’m hearing some different names from where Southern California private-school kids are dreaming of going. The names I hear bandied about all the time are: NYU, Boston College, Stanford, USC, UCLA, Reed, Wesleyan, Wash U, Bard, Tufts, Vassar, Oberlin and Lewis & Clark. And if they are at a Catholic school, add Notre Dame, Georgetown and Santa Clara.</p>
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<p>Because many of the items and offerings at the University of Florida are “hot”:</p>
<p>[Florida</a> Football Captain Is Arrested for Burglary - washingtonpost.com](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/02/AR2007100202047.html]Florida”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/02/AR2007100202047.html)</p>
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<p>Me too…</p>
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Well, two things are at play here.</p>
<p>First, one has to look up the number of scholarship recipients at Duke. I just counted the number of AB Duke (18), BN Duke (12), Robertson (~15), and Reginald Howard (5) scholars. There may be more scholarships, but those are all I could find on the website. That’s a total of about 50 scholars out of a class of, according to the admissions website, 1739 – so scholarship recipients make up about 2.88% of the student body.</p>
<p>Now, from my own experiences, I knew the number of scholarship recipients at Chicago is much higher, so I looked up the numbers. Roughly 30 honor scholarships and 100 university scholarships are given out each year, so a total of 130 out of a class of 1335 – so scholarship recipients make up about 9.74% of the student body (excluding the much smaller NM scholarships, of course). </p>
<p>Thus we can conclude that while Duke does indeed offer scholarships, it does so at a much smaller rate than some of its peers. Furthermore, some of its scholarships are earmarked for certain groups – 12 of the 50 scholarships are designated for NC students only, and 5 of the 50 scholarships are designated for black students. Only the AB Duke and Robertson, a total of about 30-33 scholarships, are open to any applicant. </p>
<p>Second, I have my doubts that scholarship recipients at Duke or indeed most places are given special privileges inaccessible to other students. Having not personally attended Duke I cannot definitively say this is the case, of course, but I have several close friends who attended UNC as Robertson scholars, and aside from special summer programs, their experiences have been much the same as those of their fellow students – access to the same professors, research experiences, etc. I think we’re simply seeing a case of self-selection; merit scholarships are intended to go to the best of the incoming student body, so is it truly that surprising that those students continue to perform well?</p>
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<p>This is only one among many other things you “cannot definitively say.” But you do anyway…</p>
<p>We’re all ears!!!</p>
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Considering that you have yet to back up this claim:
I can definitively say you’re a (crack)pot calling the kettle black.</p>
<p>Do go on…I’d love to hear about your experiences as an AB Duke scholar (or why you turned it down for HYPSM, as I am sure you will no doubt claim).</p>
<p>You stay IBcla$$y06 now…</p>
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This is a plausible explanation.
More plausible at this point than a claim that scholarship recipients receive resources and opportunities that are not open to the rest of the student body (which sounds odd, far-fetched, and self-serving, absent any documentation). Occam’s Razor. But if there is good reason to believe otherwise, we’re all ears too!</p>
<p>As the saying goes, “p3rk up your ears”: :)</p>
<p>[Robertson</a> Scholars: Opportunities](<a href=“http://www.robertsonscholars.org/index.php?type=static&source=12]Robertson”>http://www.robertsonscholars.org/index.php?type=static&source=12)</p>
<p>“One of the most exciting and unique aspects of being a Robertson Scholar is having full access to two great universities – Robertson Scholars can pull from the best of both Duke and UNC-Chapel Hill to build their educations. Robertson Scholars have full student rights and privileges at both universities, and this unique “dual citizenship” avails them of a world of opportunities on the two campuses.”</p>