My own observation is that double-majoring or having dual degrees in two completely distinct areas (i.e. no cross-disciplinarity) doesn’t really help career-wise. A student is better off achieving more depth in one of the areas that is related to her/his primary career choice. The breadth shown with such a double-major or dual-degrees can be demonstrated in other ways (e.g. through a minor, multiple minors, or just coursework).
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The courses one does outside of one’s major are for one’s own learning. There is often no benefit from the university acknowledging the courses with a second major/minor designation. It is not as if one can fluidly switch careers from one to the other. The breadth is likely helpful in some fuzzy way of course.
I think we are saying slightly different things. I am saying the breadth can be helpful but no official blessing is needed. You are saying the breadth itself is not helpful.
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I probably didn’t say it as well as I should. I actually agree with you that breadth (in the form of a double-major or duel degrees) is helpful for one’s own benefit, but not necessarily from the perspective of a potential employer who is looking for a specialist in only one of the areas, if the second major/degree isn’t relevant to the employer. However, having a second major/degree in an adjacent or cross-disciplinary area (which is likely less “costly” in terms of depth in the primary major) may be helpful to signal to a potential employer the student’s strong interest in the second area that is also, or even more, relevant to the employer, but that strong interest in the second area can also be demonstrated through a minor or coursework.
I think breadth is useful even if it is not for explicit signaling. Different ways of thinking about things – this whole humanities discussion. Especially if you are not going to be in one super specialized job for the next 30 years. You see connections in disparate places. As an example, I have heard strong arguments from my kid as to why fixing crop insurance in Africa is a more important problem to solve than doing some small bore tech entrepreneurship etc. Another example is the difference between west coast vs east coast approaches to solve problems – there is a sense in the tech echo system that technology can solve most problems. East coast solutions are not so wedded to tech as the only answer – they are also inclined to see a role of government and other players in a solution etc. There is a richness in ways of thinking as you are exposed to more things.
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When you say "nobody’ do you mean posters on CC because I hear it quite frequently from high school students themselves when they are deciding what to major in at university. I also hear it quite a bit from the parents of first generation or immigrant students from certain ethnic backgrounds.
The problem with this whole discussion as to whether or not the humanities are valued is that the opinions being expressed are from people who attended university 30 or so years ago. It does not necessarily reflect the views of current Gen Z students.
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If you do a proper poll, you may find that this cohort wants everything :-). The tradeoffs that you may see may seem like a false choice to others.
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33.0 credits/11 courses for a standalone major doesn’t seem like it would allow for much depth. Does that include first year prerequisites?
Could not agree more.
As to double major/minor at the sacrifice of more in-depth study in an area of focus, I guess it goes back to what one thinks undergraduate school is meant to accomplish. For me, seeing a kid double major in physics and Latin would make them more desirable and interesting than a few extra courses in physics. I would evaluate differently, of course, if I were hiring someone for a very discreet task for which a fairly narrow focus on “can she do this or that” were the overriding consideration. I’ve never had to hire anybody based solely on their undergraduate focus, even for non-lawyer roles. I acknowledge that there are many people who do.
As to how to advise kids, my philosophy was to have them pursue a broad liberal arts education, and in my case, when I said “broad,” I meant broad. Math and science, to me, is an integral part of any broad based education IMHO.
Philosophy < University of Florida has the list of required courses for the University of Florida philosophy major.
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I’m pretty sure none of them would say all that matters is money, even though the financial outcome of particular degrees was of interest to them.
The percentage of students getting humanities degrees is dropping. If the suggestion is that current Gen Z students appreciate the humanities more than us geezers, that doesn’t seem to be the case.
Upthread in one of the posts showing beginning and mid-career salaries, the chart showed that close to 70% of Physics majors had graduate degrees. For the 30% that don’t perhaps a double major in Latin would be helpful but for the 70% who do, they are much better served by a few extra courses in Physics.
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No I meant the opposite, that’s why it’s dropping, and yes I have heard students say that all they care about is the money.
Hmm. If 70% of physics undergrads are going on to graduate school, can’t they just take those few extra physics courses once they get there? I would think that if someone is planning on physics grad school (presumably studying nothing but physics), but also has other interests, it might be nice to pack as much of the other interests into the bachelor’s degree as possible?
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Regarding the amount of course work in the major that students take, is there any information on how much extra course work in their majors (i.e. beyond the required minimum) students in lower volume majors typically take? For example, many humanities, social science, and science majors require about 30-50% of a US bachelor’s degree amount of credit (120-128 semester hour credit units) in required courses and required in-major electives. Typically, the school’s general education requirements do not come close to consuming the rest of the credits needed to complete a bachelor’s degree, leaving a substantial amount of schedule space for free electives. So the question is, do most students use their free electives mostly on additional courses in their major subject or closely related subjects, additional courses not related to their major (possibly a second major in an unrelated subject), or some of both?
For example, a physics major may take 50% of their courses as requirements for the physics major plus 25% of the courses in general education not overlapping with the major. What would a typical physics major in this situation do for the 25% free electives left over?
Note that some students may need a smaller volume of courses for their major due to advanced placement through AP/IB scores or (for foreign language and literature majors) placement testing or procedures by the department.
You don’t have to go to high school students or members of any other demographic. You can find it this very thread. See, e.g., “Starbucks barista,” and tales of a lifetime of career frustration if you major in the wrong thing. From where do you think the high school students are hearing it?
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In theory, yes, but probably detrimental in practice. There’s so much difficult and hierarchical material that no graduate program would be able to fully cover. Once behind, it’s very difficult to catch up, to say the least.
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Ok, I’ll just have to trust you on that then! In olden days when I was a grad student, people just stayed in grad school longer if they wanted to cover stuff in more depth, but I get the distinct impression that this plan is now frowned upon.
I agree with @tamagotchi 's answer to this post. If they’re going to grad school, then who cares? And for grad school, at least based on my kid’s recent experience, it’s not clear to me that the extra courses are what’s critical for admission. The advice she got, which I hear all the time, is that the most critical thing to do as an undergrad for academic grad school admissions (i.e., not professional school) is research. So, yeah, if the double major would interfere with that, then don’t double major.
My kid was a physics/astro in undergrad, and math in grad school. Much to my surprise, just majoring in physics didn’t give her enough coursework in math to apply to a PhD program, so she did a post bacc. The point is, you don’t always really know what you want to do when you’re an undergrad. She thought she wanted to be a professor in astronomy. After working on a few pretty cool research projects, she changed her mind. So the extra physics courses for her would not have been necessary, and she benefited greatly from the “other stuff”, though in her case it was not Latin. I just picked that because I think Latin is cool.
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IME high school students rarely parrot what their parents say. Maybe they have older siblings or friends who have trouble making ends meet. Maybe they know how much the latest Iphone costs.
Obviously there is some difference of opinion here – I would encourage a focus area apart from the breadth that would enable making a livelihood that is to the satisfaction of the kid.