<p>"ivy retardation" - hilarious.
Lots of generalizations in this article. But I have to say that some of what he says rings true. I live in an area FILLED with Ivy grads. Also lots of "Ivy or nothing" parents around here. I get the sympathitc "Oh" when I tell them where son goes to school ...or where I went....or where my husband went. Elitism is rampant.
But what he says is surely not true of all Ivy and elite school grads. Our family grew up in a very low income family - and my two brothers went to Ivies. They're pretty cool...can talk to everyone...most certainly not "Ivy retarded".
Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to talk to their own parents.
But some DO fit the profile. Kids from upper class or rich sheltered backgrounds who go on to think they are the "best and the brightest." Given these circumstances, it's easy to fall into the trap of feeling superior to everyone else. This author is one of the few who looked deeper and didn't like what he saw. An "enlightened elitist" for sure. An interesting analysis - but I'd like to hear what he suggest these folks due to atone for their sins. Perhaps work in a food bank or homeless shelter? Or would that be like Kerry putting on that hunting outfit???</p>
<p>The problem is that the author confuses an Ivy education with social elitism. There can be social elitism at flagship universities. Several years ago, thaks to a CC poster, I read the blog of a Phantom Professor who taught at Texas A&M. That Phantom Professor used to dish on students who came in wearing Prada clothes and Louis Vuitton bags and Manolo shoes. Some CC posters talked about the Porsches in the parking lot of Ole 'Bama. The country club set in Ala apparently is not rushing to attend Ivy League schools.
It looks like between Columbia and Yale, the prof has not had much exposure to the social elitism that exists in other parts of the country.
Another thing: Has Yale failed so badly in its attempts to recruit students from different socio-economic backgrounds?</p>
<p>Another problem is that he projects his own limitations on to all Ivy League grads. He assumes that since <em>he</em> is incapable of making 10 minutes of small talk with a plumber that no one with an elite education can do so either.</p>
<p>If he regularly engages in this sort of faulty thinking, I'd say his fancy education has indeed failed him, but not for the reasons he imagines</p>
<p>Don't you just love broad-brushers, stereotypers, uninformed generalists, poorly researched "experts" et al? My kids went to top schools and they're the antithesis of this "model." Rubbish.</p>
<p>marite- that is SO true! I think there is MORE elitism at the top state schools- especially those in the south. </p>
<p>My son is at an Ivy and certainly was not a "teacher-pleaser" (we could have done with a little more of that, actually) and didn't rack up ECs. He did not "suffer fools", which was his way to justify being a pain in the a&& if he did not respect a teacher or other authority figure. He also recognizes that there are plenty of worthwhile people who did not go to top colleges or to college at ALL. I think H and I have inadvertently done a good job instilling that particular value, since, despite being well-educated, we are not snobs at all. We got to be good friends with our house painter many years ago- turns out the guy was interesting, intelligent and did "art" painting which was quite good, besides having athletic interests in common with us. </p>
<p>I think this writer is off-base.</p>
<p>Posts #10 and 11 took the words right out of my mouth! :)</p>
<p>I took a freshman English class with Joseph Epstein, author of "Snobbery" and several similar books. He calls HYP Harvton, and admits to feeling snobbish and reflexively looks down when he drives on Lake Shore Drive and sees someone with an Illinois State decal on his car.</p>
<p>I think this is one of the most ignorant articles I have ever read. I am a high school drop out (10th grade education and barely that) with an extensive juvenile criminal record. As a successful adult 25 years later, I interact and do business frequently with persons whose names grace the front pages of major media, etc. This is not due so much to my native intelligence as it is due to the ability of the Ivy league educated and - those with higher levels of education in general having the ability to recognize gaps in knowledge levels and having the ability to bridge those gaps through human perception and communication. </p>
<p>Rarely have I not been able to interact with someone, regardless of if they were a plumber or a highly educated, credentialed person. In addition, I have rarely met a successful, educated person who was not erudite and intellectually and emotionally nimble enough to maintain sustained communications with others who have diverse backgrounds. </p>
<p>In my experience, the Ivy educated and "Ivy qualified" (for lack of a better label) understand that we are all differently gifted...</p>
<p>Can you guys name some famous state grads that have this form of social retardation? I thought Kerry and Gore were pretty good examples.<br>
I agree that the story is full of generalizations - but I still think some of it rings true.
You have two kids. Both from an upper middle class family. One kid gets accepted to Yale. The other (just as strong) tries, gets rejected (or doesn't have the money) and attends a not so prestigious state school in the NE (take your pick, UConn, Umass. SUNY). Do they end up having different social and cultural experiences? Probably. Does one end up being better equipped to to speak to plumbers? That's a stretch. But the culture they're surrounded by certainly does have an impact. At the very least, it's interesting to think about what that impact might be.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My current project is Friendship: A Cultural History from Jane Austen to Jennifer Aniston
[/quote]
Jennifer Aniston? Really? What kind of sense and sensibility can he draw from this woman? A comedian, this one.
[quote]
UNDERGRADUATE COURSES: The European Literary Tradition, Major English Poets, Modern Prose: Advanced Writing, Jane Austen, British Fiction in the Age of Conrad, Modern British Novel, Contemporary South Asian Fiction, The Literature of Friendship, Daily Themes</p>
<p>GRADUATE COURSES: British Fiction, 1890-1915
[/quote]
Nothing's wrong with what he studied, but he expects to make small talk to a plumber on British Fiction in the Age of Conrad? This guy is both radical and irrational, v. dangerous to higher education.</p>
<p>toneranger, You're confusing an elite education with an elite lifestyle/social perspective. They are not synonymous.</p>
<p>toneranger:</p>
<p>Again, mixing social elitism with Ivy education. The Gores were royalty in Tenn before Al ever set foot at Harvard. Kerry's middle name is Forbes-- higher on the social ladder than the parvenu Kennedys. </p>
<p>The social retardation had nothing to do with their Ivy education, and everything to do with their being born with silver spoons in their mouth.</p>
<p>Crossposted with Epiphany.</p>
<p>My first reaction to the part about the plumber was "you couldn't even make small talk about baseball? REALLY?"</p>
<p>I definitely think there is something wrong with this guy, not his education, if he could look at a person in a Red Sox cap and not figure out how to get a couple of minutes of chatter by asking about the season and/or if the guy was from Boston. </p>
<p>It seems to me that somewhere along the line he missed the social lesson that I think many people (including Ivy grads know): people love talking about themselves, so when in doubt, as questions!</p>
<p>Just anecdotally: Over the years I've noticed that the people who are the most classist, shall we say, are ones who, regardless of education, have been the most isolated in geography/neighborhood. From early childhood on, I've lived both in "exclusive" neighborhoods & in diverse, urban ones, as well as abroad. Unbelievable as it is in today's "shrunken" and information-soaked globe, there really are people in the First World whose life experiences are circumscribed within a few square miles, and additionally carefully chosen select schools (near them) & vacation spots. When anyone suggests that they consider the option of enrolling a child in an outstanding private school in an urban location, they are shocked & horrified & cannot understand why you would ever suggest such a thing. Many such people have educations a lot less stellar and 'elite' than my own. In their case, they are neither academically educated nor socially educated, but it's possible to be one and not the other, OR to be both.</p>
<p>Actually no confusion here...remember my brothers went Ivy and are not socially retarded in the way this man describes. Around here, many of the social elites go to Ivies or other tony private schools. Strong correlation - but of course I know correlation does not equal causation.
On the other hand, I think it's naive to think that the social experience you have in four years at college has no impact on how you view the world. Of course it does...regardless of your social class. Yale is a pretty special and exclusive "club". Some "non-silver spoon" folks going to Yale may keep grounded - but some may come out with a feeling of superiority (yes snobbishness). And perhaps (I know a stretch) less ability to connect with their old roots. You don't always come out the way you went in.</p>
<p>My Ss went to a very diverse high school before going on to elite colleges. They were and are fully capable of interacting with individuals from very different socio-economic backgrounds, having done so throughout their lives. S1 is now working in a community that is utterly different from our own, with an income that is below the national average and very few, if any, who aspire to attend a top tier college. As far as I know he has had no trouble relating to members of the public with whom he has to interact on a daily basis.</p>
<p>It is true that first generation college students will have trouble reconnecting with their old roots, but that is a function of going to college, not attending an elite institution. If the author of the article managed to instill a love of British Literature to a first-generation college student, he'll have done a good job, regardless of where he taught the course; but the student won't be able to talk about Thackeray to his or parents, who very likely are immigrants. And yes, college is supposed to have an effect on students. But it's not supposed to turn them into social snobs.</p>
<p>I doubt very much that the elitist students at HYP are any more elitist than the elitist ones at 'Bama or Ole Miss or Texas A&M.</p>
<p>DH rec'd an undergrad & then an advanced degree from 2 elite publics. Parents were blue-collar immigrants (also Survivors). Did he speak with them about higher mathematics & computer programming? Of course not. Did he even, with his roots, receive a refined upbringing in the social graces? Very much not. They tended toward the rough in their own social style. Yet he had an instinct for kindness &, as Weskid alluded to, an impulse to focus on the other person in conversation.</p>
<p>After his storied education, he felt just as home with his parents as ever -- speaking about common concerns, the old neighborhood, old friends, current developments in their lives and the world, fatherhood, gardens, home upkeep, pets, and issues in the news. (They were not illiterate or stupid -- just lacked the vocabulary to share that more rarefied realm of his life.)</p>
<p>Thus, in my view the article reveals more about its author as a person, than about so-called elite education.</p>
<p>I'm speaking as a current college student, and although I don't agree with everything the article stated, something does resonate with me. I'm currently attending Princeton on 100% financial aid. I went through public school on free-and-reduced lunches. Yet, two years into undergrad, I realize that I'm totally out of touch with my background. The message I'm getting at Princeton is succeed, succeed, succeed. Make money, change the world, you're a leader, do something great. We're so busy doing things, sometimes it feels like we don't have time to think. It's not helping that such a disproportionate number of people graduate to go into Wall Street jobs. Two years ago, I didn't even know what I-banking stands for. And, Princeton pampers its students to such an extent that I don't need to worry about money. I expect that if I want something to happen, I'll be provided with the resources to do so. I've jumped into such a different world that it's plain scary. I can't understand why there's such a disparity between what I've received and what the greater majority of young adults in America (much less the rest of the world) will receive. </p>
<p>At the same time, perhaps this experience is what drives me to learn all I can about the American public education system. I have this crazy dream that there's some way we CAN provide quality education to every child in this country, regardless of the zip code they live in and what kind of parents they have. By some miracle, public education let me make it, now it's time to make this opportunity available to everyone. Then there are times I think, wouldn't I be happier just slowing down and living a quiet, uneventful, but peaceful life? But wait, that can't happen, because I'm a Princeton student, gosh darn it. I'm supposed to return to my ten year reunion happily settled down with an impressive CV and money or fame, preferably both, to donate to my alma mater. </p>
<p>I admit that it's not logical, but the sentiment is there.</p>
<p>In short, this cultural clash of class norms and expectations within my own life is something I definitely think about. I am incredibly thankful that I'm at Princeton to even have this issue to think about, but I know that it'll be a personal struggle for me to reconcile my old life with the life I'm working towards for the future.</p>
<p>debryc,
Perhaps then you would relate well to the article in the current NYTimes about the Teach for America founder, her spouse, their work. They're looking for people like you! :)</p>
<p>By the way, said founder, as you will see, attended Princeton & wrote her senior thesis on the subject of better educational opportunity.</p>
<p>In addition, though, actually many college students attending ANY sort or level of college feel artificially insulated from their roots or previous lifestyle. I know I did. There's nothing wrong with having that "bubble" of an experience. It is precisely that experience which permits you to think the considered thoughts you are thinking -- away from distracting responsibilities such as earning a paycheck to survive.</p>
<p>^^ Three words for you: Teach for America. It was started by a Princeton grad, too. Not every Princeton grad goes into i-banking.</p>