The dominant info from CC is wrong according to the experts.

Applying to College
1

<p>I notice that I have 3000 posts over the last year, and I've decided not to post anymore on CC. My S applied to college last year and I helped him to apply and get accepted. Over the course of this I read Princeton Review's "Best 351 Colleges" cover to cover, "The Gatekeepers" by Steinberg, "Admissions Confidential" by Toor, "Harvard Schmarvard" by Mathews, "A is for Admissions" by Hernandez, "Acing the College Application" by Hernandez, "What It Really Takes to Get Into the Ivy League" by Hughes, "Making It Into A Top College" by Greene, "Inside the Top Colleges" by Greene, "Game Plan for Getting Into College" by Aviezer, and "The Public Ivies" by Greene. I also read a lot of newspaper articles, parts of the "Fiske Guide", "Panicked Parent's Guide to College Admissions" by Rubenstone and Dalby, and "The Hidden Ivies" by Greene. This may seem a bit obsessive, but I became interested in the process. To put it into perspective, I've read over a hundred volumes on the Amer Civil War. </p>

<p>I also participated on CC, but not until the whole process was almost over for my own S. All of the books and articles that I had read were in almost agreement about the details of the college application process (except perhaps for "A is for Admissions"). I think of admissions as a well defined process rather like calculus or classical mechanics. </p>

<p>This brings me to comment about CC. Collegeconfidential is dominated by high school students who, on average, know nothing about the application process. Certainly there are a few who know what it is about, but these typically fail to convince the majority of people posting on any single thread. I honestly feel sorry for high school students who have to apply to college today. It is many times more difficult than it used to be. </p>

<p>There is a cycle on CC depending on the time of year.</p>

<p>(1) Early on the juniors and rising seniors have endless discussions on prestige. Currently there is a thread at:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=166934%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=166934&lt;/a>
where there is a debate trying to rank the ivies in order of prestige. Typically during this phase, only the ivies are discussed. The following comments can be found at this thread:
[Quote]
Well MIT and stanford aren't ivies, so they are in a completely different ground. They are, however, very respected as well...

[/quote]

[quote]
Right now, I think Yale and Stanford are tied for 2nd most prestigious - they seem to be "the hot universities of the moment"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>(2) Then there start discussions about whether the process involves any luck. I particularly liked the arguments last year about how the fact that some people would be accepted to H and not Y/P and vice versa because H, Y, and P were all looking for different kinds of applicants. Some people were convinced that no luck is ever involved.</p>

<p>(3) The college guides all say that adcoms will not split hairs between SAT scores of 1550 and 1600. This has been perverted on CC to mean that they don't split hairs between 1400 and 1600. These are the discussions about the importance of EC's. The college guides talk about how winning national or at least regional awards can help differentiate applicants. This has been perverted on CC to mean that being student council president or something similar is a "hook".</p>

<p>(4) The threads at the end of the year are on the actual mechanics of applying. These are useful.</p>

<p>(5) Next are the threads from people who totally misunderstood what I discussed above in item 3. A working rule for selecting safeties, matches and reaches is to ignore everything but SAT scores, and then adjust upward or downward slightly based on the other factors in the app. For unhooked applicants, you need to be at or above the 75% mark for a safety, at the 50-60% mark for a match and at the 25-40% mark for a reach. In addition, the super-elite colleges are denying/waitlisting 80% of the qualifying applicants in each category because they don't have room. There are, of course, a few anecdotes from people who did okay in the process. These are of course accepted as proof by the people who are applying next year because they want to believe that they are true. Any bad news is ignored because people don't want to believe it.</p>

<p>(6) Next will come the discussions about money. Something that everybody totally ignored until the end of the process.</p>

<p>Overall I think that anybody on CC would be much better off reading one book on the subject. Posts on CC are dominated by people who really do not know what they are talking about. Most have not been thru the process yet. Of the ones who have been, there are enough people supplying anecdotes to blur what actually happened. After all, you can find a few survivors from battles who have a 180 degree view of what history says happened. When most people on CC are trying to convince everyone (and themselves) of the opposite of what is being said in every college admissions guide, perhaps you should question whether you need to find information somewhere else.</p>

<p>Good luck to everybody.</p>

2

<p>Thanks for the interesting post, dufus3709. I, too, have felt the same way, and therefore, I do not post (or rarely, if I have) in threads regarding prestige, chances, financial aid, etc. When I first started using CC, I took a lot of information lightly because I did not know how much credit was involved. I do have to say that the SAT/ACT information on here is quite useful, mainly because there have been experienced test takers in certain subjects that have given out helpful tactics and devices for test preparation.</p>

<p>I do agree that for the college admissions process, it is better to conduct research on your own. We cannot always rely on unknown Internet sources to make our long-term decisions.</p>

<p>It is unfortunate to know that you won't be posting anymore on CC. I have enjoyed reading your responses, particularly because many of them were pretty valid. Good luck on your future endeavors!</p>

3

<p>Interesting post, dufus. I think we all need to remember that what users on CC say is not always accurate when it comes to admission- a lot is based on uninformed speculation. But I know that CC does offer support from those going through the same stressful process and an opportunity to share opinions. As long as people remember to treat user posts as opinions, not the gospel truth, I think that CC offers a lot of support and information (if not in the opinions of CC'ers themselves, then at least in the links and recommendations of other resources that many people share). Although CC is far from perfect, I would hesitate to completely write it off.</p>

4

<p>Hi, I'm currently a junior, yet I totally agree with dufus's perspective on CC. I have done quite a bit of extensive research on the college admissions process along with my mom's help, and together found some really interesting, convincing truths that are somewhat distorted by many CC users. Things like "MIT-Slight Reach, Princeton-Match, Brown-Match..." that often appear on the chances threads are just not accurate. My mom recently found in one of her guide books a very sophisticated grading system most colleges use to give applicants a range of points for around 20 areas of requirement they have met or not met. I find that this system of accurately assessing applicants, for instance, is much more reliable and convincing than to believe in the unaccountable "student" self assessments on various CC threads. Other things like the importance of the SAT and the ultra-importance of one or more ECs that show personality are some of the other things that I found through individual research (but are also some things that can draw up 1000 different opinions on CC). Instead of totally believing in what's been said on CC or a few admission guide books, I found that devising a carefully-drawn up plan that fits my individual situation would be best approach to college admissions.</p>

5

<p>let's give it a bump</p>

6

<p>I feel like I got accepted to most schools I applied to because I valued 'fit' between my background, personality, and values with those of the colleges I was applying to. However, I never read any guidebooks, and I'm very curious as to what kind of grading schemes these people have divulged.</p>

7

<p>Well thank you Dufus for your take on it all. Good thing that my daughter didn't ask you for your advice.</p>

<p>My d. just was accepted at a top LAC with a 22% admit rate from the RD applicant pool. Her SAT CR & Math scores are 100 points below the median score of admitted students this year, at the 25th percentile or below for the median 25-75% range reported for 2 years ago. She has a 3.9 UW GPA, 4.1 W.; ranked within top 5 of a class of 165. No awards or honors in high school. 1 AP class, 1 semester only, in 11th grade; taking 3 AP's senior year. She is white, born & raised in California. Parents have advanced degrees. Financial aid applicant who applied with a fee waiver. </p>

<p>While I am sure that you will chalk this up to just one more "anecdote" from someone who managed to do well in the process, I have to note that my d. was admitted to FOUR reach schools, with those SAT's below median at all of them. She applied to 12 schools, rejected by 1, waitlisted at 2, and still waiting to hear from one other (a match/safety). The school that rejected her was Brown. The schools that waitlisted her are less selective than the 4 reach schools that accepted her, & her test scores were comfortably in range at one. </p>

<p>Looking back at the process, all I can say is the biggest mistake I think CC posters make is focusing too much on the value of test scores. Obviously colleges look beyond the scores. My d's strategy was to use her in-state pubic as her safety and to apply to her dream schools - she got into her top 2 choices. </p>

<p>You can't get into a college if you don't apply. That doesn't mean that kids should have a scattershot approach - my daughter targeted her apps well and made sure to give her very top choices the kind of information about herself that would tend to make her an attractive candidate. </p>

<p>But it really isn't all that much about the test scores. They are just one piece of the puzzle, and when a student has other qualities the school is looking for, it can be a very small piece.</p>

<p>Back to this board, and anecdotes. What kept me going through this stressful process was a single post by a girl last year who had gotten into a reach school with scores on each test at least 100 points below median. She didn't say what her particular strength or angle was, other than to mention that she was NOT a URM -- but she did have one piece of advice: don't be afraid to reach.</p>

<p>So whoever that kid was and whatever school she got into: a heartfelt thanks.</p>

8

<p>Just finished my contest essay and saw this thread.
Bon voyage, dufus. It is really unfortunate that you are not posting anymore. I have been enjoying your post because they are so helpful and straight to the point.</p>

9

<p>I agree. I just post here cause I hates doing mah h/w.</p>

<p>I posted on CC for simple chance predictions and essay adjustments. I knew most people would say my essays sucked and my chances were slim to nill, but I went on my gut instinct anyways and I can't complain one bit. In at MIT, Rice, UT Honors, and Cornell without a rejection (yet...). People say the minority factor is the reason, but trust me that it is much more than just being hispanic--though it does help a little.</p>

10

<p>dufus, Wow. What a self-aggrandizing post. And why are you hating on CC? </p>

<p>Listen, I'm glad you read some books. The rest of us have probably read as many. Maybe more. But what possible relevance could that have? If I read two more books than you have does that make my opinion two books more informed? LOL. Most books read wins? Interesting way to grade. I think I'd rather grade on the value of the knowledge gained from the study, not the volume of books studied. But that's just me.</p>

<p>Princeton Review cover to cover? Why would anybody do that ? Was it a real possibility your kid was headed to every school in the book? IMO your time would have been much better spent on the parent's forum gaining some perspective from parents who had been there and done that. Recently. At that school. </p>

<p>What I learned from the parents and professionals and owners (Thanks , Dave) on this site , coupled with what I learned from the students on this site from the colleges my D was interested in, has been better (and far more current) than any book written on this subject by a factor of five. Admittedly, CC is kind of like a big catbox. Great idea , you just have to learn to sift out the crap. ;) </p>

<p>Sorry you didn't enjoy your 3000 posts. But goodness, it appears you gave it a good long trial run anyway. LOL. </p>

<p>Hey calmom, our kids did a-ok, didn't they? D is 12/13 acceptances with her balanced list , most with fantastic merit aid, 1 wait-list , 1 to go. (Thanks, CC. )</p>

11

<p>Thank you Dufus! As someone who has been through the entire process I completely agree! </p>

<p>Furthemore, it is also extremely important to keep in mind that what constitutes the average here on CC, or on any other forums, for example, is NOT the average of the nation, or even close. I've seen many posters agonizing over what they view to be sub-par SAT scores or GPAs, when in actuality their scores are very good, and most have gotten into very good schools. Anyway, just my two cents. Good luck everyone!</p>

12

<p>


and

</p>

<p>Hey, dufus. Your POV intrigued me (as it did not match my experience in the least) so I used the search function and noticed that of your 3000 posts , the search function shows you only have 212 posts NOT in the "College Admissions" forum. I think I've found your problem. LOL. A word of advice, parent to parent - if you hang out at the high school, it's more than likely you're going to meet mostly high school kids. </p>

<p>32 Parents
97 College Search and Selection
38 Chances?
3 FA and Scholarships
42 Colleges and Uni's (with 41 about Emory) </p>

<p>That explains a lot. Only 32 posts in the Parents Forum? Well, I'm sorry you didn't find your way over there more often. You could have avoided a lot of pain and learned a lot from more experienced parents, and MOST IMPORTANTLY you may have had a better time. ;)</p>

13

<p>I have to agree with a lot of what Dufus says. I've been lurking since this time last year, when my son was a junior. I rarely post.</p>

<p>Many times I tried to encourage my son to vist the site ("there's so much infomation!") but he didn't really buy in, posting just a few times. He did vist more frequently as the decisions were coming in at the end of March but he quickly grew totally disgusted with the goings on in the Northwestern forum ("decisions are out today", "I talked to somebody at Northwestern and they'll be out at 6 tomorrow", "no, they are updating the system now," etc.). Kids were logging in and out of N'western's application 24 hours a day for at least a week, spewing all kinds of nonsense and theories as to when decisions would be released. Honestly, that thread became nutty until finally s walked away saying, "Mom, these CC kids never have any idea what they're talking about. They all pretend that they do but they don't know anymore than anyone else." I have to say that he is correct. :)</p>

<p>I'm glad he didn't buy into any of the chances? or how are my stats? threads early in the process. As it is, he's emerged from the entire college application process without too much wear and tear on his psyche. </p>

<p>Poor mom was the one who became obsessive. :) D is a freshman and I'm sure I'll be scouring CC trying to get a leg up on her college journey. She's a history/literature/writing freak with an amazing singing voice. Where do we even begin??</p>

<p>Oh...son went 6 for 7. The only rejection was ... N'western. :)</p>

14

<p>IMO anyone is an idiot who relies soley on advice from people on anonymous message boards ( This is not aimed at the OP. I just see too many people who post on CC who seem to think that it's a great idea to follow the exact advice of anonymous posters instead of looking up the info themselves by using reputable sources like the colleges' web sites).</p>

<p>. It's ridiculous to assume that people on anonymous message boards can give you your chances of getting into colleges. It's totally stupid to apply to colleges based only on info from anonymous message boards. It's insanely dumb to ask anonymous posters questions such as when the application dealines are for specific colleges. I will never undestand why such posters don't go directly to the source.</p>

<p>However, there's still lots of valuable information on boards like CC. The type of info that I've found helpful here includes:
1. Info about exactly what kind of students are getting merit aid from specific colleges.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Info about people's experiences doing college tours of places that I haven't been able to visit.</p></li>
<li><p>Info about what kind of students get accepted to various programs like MITES, TASP and various outside merit scholarships.</p></li>
<li><p>Info about what certain summer programs are like.</p></li>
<li><p>Info about people's experiences with financial aid with various colleges.</p></li>
<li><p>Info about what exactly happens on fly-in programs at specific colleges</p></li>
<li><p>Info about gap year opportunities</p></li>
<li><p>Tips about what colleges track things like demonstrated interest.</p></li>
<li><p>Info about how students have pursued their passions through ECs.</p></li>
<li><p>Info about how to effectively negotiate for more financial aid.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I also obsessively read books and articles about college admissions. </p>

<p>Deciding to totally ignore advice on CC is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.</p>

15

<p>CC is great. Good posts, calmom, curmudgeon, NSM. OP makes some good points. Nevertheless, it would be a mistake for any college aspirant not to come here and sample the info posted here - good, bad, indifferent. Here's another one of those derided anecdotes: applicant, class of 2010, bottom 25% stats at top schools, came here, picked up ideas, crafted a unique ec, in at Yale, Princeton, other Ivies, etc. What's the point? Students should never let themselves be daunted by the doomsday scenarios painted by admissions experts. The experts know what they are talking about, but an applicant may beat the odds, to everyone's shock. Have a dream, come to CC, pick up ideas, package yourself the best way you can with what you have. Someone in the admissions office may believe in you. If you don't get in, you're out the app fee. Small price to pay. The greater sin is not trying, inspite of what the oddsmakers say.</p>

16

<p>Is it any surprise that this board has lots of new members who do not know a much about college selection and admissions? That is why they visit here. Is it any surprise that there is a lot of speculation, anxiety and concern about colleges? I seem to remember being in that situation last year.</p>

<p>Maybe you can learn more by just reading a book, but I think this forum is very useful. There is some value to being able to hear lots of different opinions, ask any question on your mind, and look at different issues from different points of view. Sometimes it is even helpful to voice a stupid opinion and see what response you get. I suppose you can believe there is more mis-information than facts. Perhaps there are a few people who look are lead astray. I really don't believe that is a big issue. I believe most people are able to use message boards and understand what appears to be a consensus based on experience and knowledge and what is just a rash opinion or someone with a unique perspective.</p>

<p>Calmom, congratulations to you and your D. You did leave out an important part of the story. Your D had the maturity, confidence and determination to make college visits at the other end of the country on her own. I would suspect those interviews and visits were pretty impressive.</p>

17

<p>dufus, oddly enough, I recently made a similar decision. As you might be able to tell from my profile, I had been trying to get to 3000 posts! LOL. I went through the process last year and stuck around for another year in return for the great advice I had received. My main reason for sticking it out was to hang around the Duke forum, but it has plenty of other students now. As much as I love Cur's analogy, taking a breather from CC is a good idea, methinks. :)</p>

18

<p>I am a relatively new member, and am far more in danger of getting sucked into this kind of site than my D, who could care less about talking to strangers on line. My overall sense is that CC may be more helpful to parents than kids. Clearly there are many thoughtful articulate kids posting, but there is also a chilling number of kids who are anxious, depressed, getting very bad advice and who must have little real-life support for this overwhelming process. If you read some of the threads mentioned in the NYT article you will scare yourself silly. See Feeling Crappy, To all those Rejected and Waitlisted and A Hard Broken Rejectee. </p>

<p>Unfortunately the huge number of threads in which kids compare schools and give eachother absurd advice based on stats about financial success later in life or propaganda about the importance of attending status ivies are the opposite of helpful. Very few of them advise eachother to chose the school that will make them happy or consider the concept of a good fit. They are more likely to say "I would go to Princeton" or "Harvard is better than UCB" or "You're an idiot if you don't do..." Frankly, if most of these kids' essays read anything like their posts I'm not surprised they were rejected. In addition, I am struck by their simultaneous belief in how random the admissions process is and the willingness with which they blame themselves for the rejections. These kids are victims of poor guidance, applying to only reach schools, assuming that grades and scores mean everything; they are victims of their high schools' and their parents' agendas. I may be talking about a small slice of the class of 2010, but a big slice has indeed had their high school years overshadowed by anxiety about college. </p>

<p>The system needs an overhaul. Many kids blame the colleges, but the colleges are too far along on the chain to shoulder the blame. A first step might be for high schools to limit the no. of recs they are willing to send, thereby cutting down the total no. of apps to all colleges. The more time colleges spend per app, the more likely good matches will be made, and the less likely that grades and scores only will determine acceptance. More counseling needs to be provided for pubic high school kids who can't afford a private advisor or don't have parents who can guide them. It's great to have one or two super-reach schools if you are willing to knock yourself out putting together an appealing package, but it's equally important to look at match schools as schools that are the right fit, not just as schools that you have a better chance of getting in to. Of course we are proud and pleased when our kids get into some schools they like and we like for them, but let's spend some time thinking about how this process could be made less stressful and more supportive for more kids.</p>

19

<p>The following is from the NY Times at: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/education/31chatter.html?ex=1301461200&en=68102a55bf704112&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/education/31chatter.html?ex=1301461200&en=68102a55bf704112&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&lt;/a>
The article was mentioned several places on CC because collegeconfidential was mentioned, but its content was never discussed. </p>

<p>I do understand that some people have done well prestige-wise by ignoring the odds. Some people will beat the odds anytime that statistics are involved. It is a fact in physics that a table has a finite probability of floating in the air because all of the atoms may decide to suddenly decide to randomly move in the same direction. The slogan for my state lottery is something like "You can't win if you don't play". That really wasn't the thrust of what I saying. What I meant is better expressed in the NY Times article which I did not read until immediately after my post. There is some good info on CC but the main "themes" on CC are primarily destructive in my opinion. </p>

<p>My primary purpose of being on CC has been to try to help. If people wanted to apply to extreme reaches, I was never trying to discourage them but rather trying to make it clear that it was like buying a lottery ticket. Somehow lottery winner never come back later telling everyone else how fantastic the odds are winning really are. </p>

<p>From the NY Times article:

[quote]
Some of the Web sites are nonprofit operations that strive to create free online communities of friends. Others provide application help or admissions advice for a fee, while still others are operated by companies with sports and music programming aimed at teenagers, with the blogs and forums as an added attraction. </p>

<p>But the amount of misinformation about the applications process, like any other topic online, is staggering, and there is no way to verify the identify of bloggers and writers. At the same time, guidance counselors and admissions officers — some of whom monitor the sites to check out what is being said about their colleges — suspect that the online chatter may do more to reinforce anxiety than curb it.</p>

<p>"It's really accelerated in the past year to the point where there is a ton of bad information out there," said Robert Massa, the vice president of enrollment at Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pa. "People need to realize that anybody can say anything on the Internet."</p>

<p>In the "if you can't beat them, join them" spirit, the Web site for Dickinson, like that of many other colleges, hosts its own admissions blogs, Mr. Massa said, intended to give prospective students an authentic window into the Dickinson experience. </p>

<p>Sally Rubenstone, the editor of collegeconfidential.com, which offers admissions advice and counseling, wrote in an e-mail response to a reporter's question that she wondered whether online discussions were helpful "or are we, instead, merely fanning the flames of fear in an already overly stressed process."</p>

<p>"Sometimes high school seniors should head to a movie or out for a jog and away from the keyboard and admissions angst," she added.</p>

<p>Ms. Rubenstone acknowledged that sometimes the information provided was "downright wrong" but said she believed that "over all, it's on target."</p>

<p>Bari Meltzer Norman, who runs <a href="http://www.mycollegecounselor.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.mycollegecounselor.com&lt;/a>, which offers admissions advice, said chat rooms were mostly "amplified neighborhood chatter, much of which is pure speculation." </p>

<p>"Almost all of it feeds anxiety," Ms. Norman added. "I see people on those boards asking questions that should be directed at a knowledgeable college adviser." </p>

<p>Jane F. Ross, an education consultant in Manhattan, said some parents were upset after reading postings about students who had been admitted to select colleges, yet had lower test scores or weaker grades than their children. </p>

<p>"It had not even occurred to these parents (well-educated and generally sophisticated from all appearances) that perhaps the postings to the site were not entirely reliable," Ms. Ross wrote in an e-mail message.</p>

<p>"Perhaps it is simply a sign of the times," she added, "that the college admissions process itself seems increasingly mystical, so families and students are seeking soothsayers in the forms of blogs and chat rooms."

[/quote]
</p>

20

<p>Warblers,</p>

<p>I really hope that you stay becasue I for one enjoy reading your post as you do present a balanced perspective, dispell the urban legends and get people to look past the rankings when it comes to Duke ( you write about it warts and all) and your perspective is one is truly needed.</p>

<p>I think the what are my chances, is a waste of space becasue no one can tell you with any certainty what your chances are (if we could, we certainly would not be on CC). </p>

<p>I think over time, you do tend to find out whose postings give useful information (think about a bunch of student who have never been to college,submitted an application or knows anything about the admissions process, giving advice to another student in the same perdicament) and those that just play lip service.</p>

<p>If you spend all of your time on the chances, admissions, college search (even though alexandre does give good advice) you are not going to get a balanced picture about college or the admissions process.</p>