The dominant info from CC is wrong according to the experts.

Applying to College
21

<p>L,<br>
Great ideas, but I doubt we are going to see the improvement you suggest. Let's face it, most of the HS GC's are not very helpful. They often have 100's of kids to advise and not many of the kids are strongly interested in finding the best academic experiences in college. Not many of GC's have lots of experience with college academics or admissions.</p>

<p>I am not too keen on your idea of limiting applications. My D had 2-3 frivolous apps, but she had a lot of research and reasons to apply to 12 schools. With double degree apps, she had to do 15 applications. The last on her list turned out to be the dream school she is currently attending.</p>

<p>I don't think we should put down the posts involved with rankings and prestige. I notice parents are equally concerned about these issues, especially when it comes time to worry about the value of tuition payments for private colleges. Trying to figure out what is better and what is worth it, is just part of the process.</p>

<p>I have more problem with terms such as fit and feel. Often that seems to relate to ill defined impressions from campus visits. It is pretty hard to get to really understand what will make a college student happy.</p>

22

<p>Naah. I have to disagree with Dufus. For a detailed counterpoint, and to see some lovin' on CC rather than hatin', see the thread I started:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=148229%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=148229&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

23

<p>I agree. I have learned a lot here. I learned almost nothing at the HS seminars.</p>

<p>It should not be too surprising that professional counselors believe we should use their services. I hope they really don't believe that we are all gullable and believe everything we read on the internet.....or everything they tell us.</p>

24

<p>I really need to take a moment to bash the Parent's Forum. Just reading the previous thread cited in post #22 almost made my skin crawl. I hate how the parents talk about college admissions as if they are doing it for themselves instead of their kids, how they pat themselves on the back for being great parents, how they measure their own success in life by the fact that their kids are applying and perhaps being accepted to a prestigious college, how they trade compliments between each other, how the adcoms won't care about DD's or DS's relatively low SAT scores because they will recognize their wonderfulness from the essays, and so forth. It was mentioned in a previous thread how I kept out of the Parent's Forum. Actually last year when I joined CC, about 90% of the posts in the Parent's Forum were maudlin posts about the kids leaving the nest and how they wouldn't have anything to do soon. Look forward to this again in about 3 months. </p>

<p>Sorry.</p>

25

<p>Having a bad day, Dufus?</p>

26

<p>Here is a website listing common logical fallacies
<a href="http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.php&lt;/a>
Facts should be considered by themselves without reference to the person making the statement. </p>

<p>However, I would actually like to hear if any actual college applicants have experiences suggesting that CC has been useful. Some recent threads about people being denied at nearly all of the colleges that they applied to might possibly indicate a problem.</p>

27

<p>LOL, this whole thread just goes to show the power of the Internet and sites like this. bottom line is that everyone who has commented here so far is right. There really aren't wrong posts in a thread like this, but I like the fact that it gets discussion going. The only bad thing I see right now is that we aren't getting more people involved in this thread with some creative and constructive ideas for the site. Personally, I need to think this out more before I post some ideas.</p>

<p>One thing I do notice, in the threads I have tried to post, there seems to be a somewhat tightness to some of the groups here and they don't really invite you in. probably more on the parent's forum area then anywhere wlse.</p>

28

<p>Dufus, I totally agree. This site is full opf people rationalizing why they'll get in to school A because of their holistic approach. Sure, a few, very few, beat the odds. Is it any wonder that we're seeing kids of parents who spend masssive amounts of time on CC beating odds? Funny, it doesn't seem to be kids here who got in with below average stats, it's the kid's of parents who are here!! Those parents, good chance, have micromanaged every aspect of education and ECs forever. Heck yeah those kids stand out!</p>

<p>For the masses, the books are right, numbers are the key. Combine them with some not too cliched ECs, essays gone over by everyone smart the parents know, guidance to teachers on what you want in the rec.......</p>

29

<p>Agreed Dufus! </p>

<p>I've seen many of my fellow classmates whose parents have taken all of the initiative for the students, and have seen how miserable it fails in the long run. These are the students who don't seem to be able to function without their parents. It can get a little ridiculous. </p>

<p>On the flip side, I've seen students whose parents have participated at a very minimal level in their application process, where the students have found much more success once they head off to school. These students are the independent students who take quite easily to the changes between high school and college, and who, most of the time, do very well.</p>

<p>I do think that some parental involvement is can be very helpful for the student. I also think that it is great that so many of the parents out there are doing research on their schools that their child may enter. I do see a problem, however, when it is the parents who are doing ALL of the research and work leading up to college applications, and who, no doubt, are greatly influencing their child's decision after being admitted.</p>

30

<p>Wow, I'm impressed. Something as innocuous as that thread made your skin crawl? You might want to get hyper-sensitivity checked out. </p>

<p>Turning to your comment about whether or not CC has actually helped anybody, you might want to read back over the travails of Andi's son. Denied/WL everywhere last year. The Parents Forum offered encouragement and ideas, several of which were graciously accepted. This year's results were a <em>tad</em> better. MIT, Brandeis, WPI, Case, Carnegie Mellon. Now, did the Parents Forum directly cause that turnaround? Of course not. Andi's son is exceptionally talented and bright. But I like to think that the Parents Forum was a nice hothouse of ideas (and support) that provided some assistance.</p>

<p>I'll be the first to admit that the Parents Forum can be, on occasion (and more so recently), snippish and downright antagonistic. But far more often it is supportive, kind, and (yes!) chock full of good information.</p>

31

<p>I agree with Dufus in 2 counts ...
1) Chances threads
2) Threads on presitige and rankings (OK I read them for yucks)</p>

<p>That said there a bunch of topics for which CC has been invaluable ... I do not take any of the posting as gospel but as an additional piece of info to consider ...
1) Financial aid / FAFSA / EFC etc ... I've read it before but other posters real life experiences helped me truly understand (and worry a little)
2) Merit aid
3) Financing college from the middle class ... hundreds of stories form the dreaded middle ground ... unbelievable helpful
4) Campus visits and campus culture ... the more opinions the better
5) Info about LACs ... I know about the big research schools ... LACs on the other hand were little known
6) Tons of good info / advice on athletic recruitment ... especially about "minor" sports and D3 sports ... again real life stories are an amazing help.
7) Pointer to other resources such as books and other web sites
8) Getting a little closer to my schools (I still can't believe Cornell lost in 3 OTs in hockey).</p>

<p>And most importantly ... hearing the voices of some of the amazing young adults out there ... who absolutely put me to shame compared to where I was as a HS senior!</p>

32

<p>iderochi: Smugness, self-satisfaction, living life vicariously thru a person's kids, and an emphasis on prestige brand-name schools by parents bothers me a lot.</p>

<p>suze: Your comment about the effect of having an involved parent for admission purposes certainly applies to me. My S would never have gotten into the college that he did without my help. I was operating more as a personal secretary though. He would tell me what he needed to know and I would go find it out and then tell him. </p>

<p>3togo: My real problem with CC is the chance threads and the emphasis on prestige. In general I think that a lot of applicants are pressured to apply to schools that are out of reach and then made to feel like failures when the denials come in. I think that the pressure comes from people on CC and parents much more than anywhere else. My S was never on CC. Nobody at his high school was obsessing over getting into an ivy. If he had been on CC, he may have gotten the idea that he had a shot at HYP with a 1380, 3.6 uw, 4.1 w, top 10%, very good EC's for CC, and non-hook. If people were not so obsessed with the schools at the top that they will get automatic denials/waitlists from, they might make more of an effort to find "fit" schools rather than ending up going to a safety that they haven't thought about very much.</p>

33

<p>"This year's results were a <em>tad</em> better. MIT, Brandeis, WPI, Case, Carnegie Mellon. Now, did the Parents Forum directly cause that turnaround? Of course not."</p>

<p>Wrong, lderochi. Some of us PM'ed andi like crazy last yr., with specific suggestions, some of which had a direct relationship to the above list. I won't go further than that.</p>

<p>Dufus, some of us PM a lot, & give & get much of our meatiest information through that. That communication has been enormously, concretely helpful to parents & students who partake. I'm not a member of the scratch-each-other's-backs club, but one needn't approve of <em>everything</em> about a message board or forum, in order to participate. I gave up viewing most of the chances & "prestige" threads (or participating in them much) ages ago. </p>

<p>The one thing I will agree with you about, is that there is way too much rationalization on PF (regarding results), way too little honest confrontation with the reality (oops, I used the "r" word that gets me into trouble) that the # of qualified candidates exceed the number of spaces in the most desired colleges. (Separate from the reality that not all applicants are viewed as "qualified," from the <em>colleges'</em> points of view, not the parents' p.o.v.) And there is still way too much underlying belief on PF, i.m.o., that excellence equals entitlement.</p>

<p>As to the student forums, I don't quite share your perspective. Parents wander in & help provide some grounding now & then, also advice, also PM availability. I have done all 3. Many other parents have, too. Much of that advice the students have used gratefully, & returned later to report on successful utilization of such feedback.</p>

<p>Further, I learn quite a bit from many of the students, actually.</p>

<p>Apologies if this ends of being double-posted. My first post didn't take; had to rewrite.</p>

34

<p>This is a something of a continuance of the thread at: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=167507&page=1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=167507&page=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>CC is putting a lot of extra and unnecessary pressure on applicants. Obviously, the number of applicants to the brand-name colleges has increased over the last few years. Part of this is just America's fixation with brand-names, but a lot of applicants do actually fear that their lives are are going to totally suck if they can not be accepted to one of twelve colleges. </p>

<p>This feeling of pressure can come from one of three places: internal, parents, and peers. In general I think that a lot of applicants are pressured to apply to schools that are out of reach and then made to feel like failures when the denials/waitlists come in. Early in the admissions cycle, CC passes a clear message that it is relatively easy to get into the elite colleges provided you are the type of person who is not a loser. CC says that it does not depend on SAT scores, but rather on the intrinsic characteristics of the applicant. (You know, the important things that make a person an unique and worthwhile individual.) I suspect that most of the pressure to get into one of the super-elite colleges comes from parents and forums like CC. If my S had ever been on CC when he was applying last year, he may have gotten the idea that he had a shot at HYP with a 1380/1600, 3.6uw, 4.1w, top 10%, very good EC's for CC, and non-hook. He would have probably applied and then been denied/waitlisted at all of his "reach" schools. Then he would have felt like a failure for only getting into the schools that he was supposed to get into. Perhaps he would have then decided to try to recover from the massive "failure" by taking a gap year and trying again. </p>

<p>In addition, if applicants were not so obsessed with applying to the schools at the top that even the best are likely to get denials/waitlists from, they might make more of an effort to find "fit" schools rather than ending up attending a safety that they haven't thought very much about. </p>

<p>If this doesn't sound right to you, read some recent posts. In addition, the following quotes are from a NY Times article at:
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/education/31chatter.html?ex=1301461200&en=68102a55bf704112&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/education/31chatter.html?ex=1301461200&en=68102a55bf704112&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&lt;/a>

[quote]
But the amount of misinformation about the applications process, like any other topic online, is staggering, and there is no way to verify the identify of bloggers and writers. At the same time, guidance counselors and admissions officers — some of whom monitor the sites to check out what is being said about their colleges — suspect that the online chatter may do more to reinforce anxiety than curb it.</p>

<p>"It's really accelerated in the past year to the point where there is a ton of bad information out there," said Robert Massa, the vice president of enrollment at Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pa. "People need to realize that anybody can say anything on the Internet."</p>

<p>Sally Rubenstone, the editor of collegeconfidential.com, which offers admissions advice and counseling, wrote in an e-mail response to a reporter's question that she wondered whether online discussions were helpful "or are we, instead, merely fanning the flames of fear in an already overly stressed process."</p>

<p>"Sometimes high school seniors should head to a movie or out for a jog and away from the keyboard and admissions angst," she added.</p>

<p>Ms. Rubenstone acknowledged that sometimes the information provided was "downright wrong" but said she believed that "over all, it's on target."</p>

<p>Bari Meltzer Norman, ... offers admissions advice, said chat rooms were mostly "amplified neighborhood chatter, much of which is pure speculation." </p>

<p>Jane F. Ross, an education consultant in Manhattan, said some parents were upset after reading postings about students who had been admitted to select colleges, yet had lower test scores or weaker grades than their children. </p>

<p>"It had not even occurred to these parents (well-educated and generally sophisticated from all appearances) that perhaps the postings to the site were not entirely reliable," Ms. Ross wrote in an e-mail message.</p>

<p>"Perhaps it is simply a sign of the times," she added, "that the college admissions process itself seems increasingly mystical, so families and students are seeking soothsayers in the forms of blogs and chat rooms."

[/quote]
</p>

35

<p>The only things I agree with the OP on are
1. that people on here are overconcerned with prestige and will do anything possible to rank schools in some way (it's how our minds work, you know)
2. people need to research more for themselves rather than relying on other people to do it for them</p>

<p>Yet, for the most part, I think CC does a LOT more good than harm, and I know that even though I am a high school senior, I know a great deal about many schools and the college admissions process and therefore feel justified giving feedback or suggestions to others - they asked, they are free to do with it what they want.</p>

36

<p>I feel that the double "themes" of prestige and the ease of being accepted to the top colleges (except for losers) on CC has caused a lot of harm to a lot of people. It caused many people to concentrate on applying to colleges that they had little chance of being accepted to and therefore neglecting to do an actual college search. Then it has caused many people to feel like losers when they aren't. At this point, it is causing many people to consider taking a gap year so that they can redemn their "failure" by trying the whole thing over again next year.</p>

37

<p>dufus, I understand your viewpoint, but I really see a lot of evidence in my community -- & from student & parent posts on CC the <em>instant</em> they "arrive" here -- that the "frenzy" and the "pressure" pre-exists CC. From what I've seen, what I read, this forum merely satisfies pre-existing needs/desires to continue on a "frenzied" path, or to begin one. </p>

<p>I think CC (with its "Ivy guaranteed" program, etc.) is responding to drives & goals that have their own raison d'etre. (And that if CC didn't exist to air-&-share, families would find or create another forum for that purpose.)</p>

<p>Just my view. I try to be responsible when counseling people I know-- regarding likely outcomes & regarding assumptions. Often people refuse to listen to advice from professionals, not to mention advice from long-standing friends. We have friends whose daughter was just rejected from about 11 reaches. I suggested safeties & matches (about 11 total). They nodded & agreed at that time. But ultimately D chose a different path, to her peril. (Perhaps she thought she would "show me" by choosing 11 reaches instead of 11 matches/safeties. Obviously the one who was "shown" was herself.) She is only one of many examples of that ambition -- & I don't even think she posts on CC.</p>

38

<p>People will always be obssessed with prestige. Its human nature.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.christopherleestreet.com/ftp/random/dance_monkeys_dance.swf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.christopherleestreet.com/ftp/random/dance_monkeys_dance.swf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

39

<p>I used to hate this site. I considered it the devil and wanted to log on and rant about how much I despised it.</p>

<p>Nonetheless, I've found it useful in helping me deduce answers--not in providing them. The vast number of different, often contradictory opinions, facts, and speculations prompted me to find the best answers for myself. Listen to everyone; trust few, has become my motto for the CC forums.</p>

<p>Many people do use the site to brag, others try to provide answers when they should really be keeping quiet. I think this site is a good thing to use... but not to rely on.</p>

<p>I'd like to add that you should not use this site to choose your colleges. If you're a junior, then I recommend closing this window, choosing by yourself, then coming back later for help in the process. Yep.</p>

40

<p>"If my S had ever been on CC when he was applying last year, he may have gotten the idea that he had a shot at HYP with a 1380/1600, 3.6uw, 4.1w, top 10%, very good EC's for CC, and non-hook."</p>

<p>are you saying people with those scores never even have a shot? i think thats not true at all. they arent likely to be accepted but its not like they have no chance at all</p>