The downside of attending a top HS

Parents Forum
1

<p>This quote is from a column by Jay Matthews in yesterday's Washington Post. </p>

<p>"Many parents think that if their kids can get into the private school where all the local judges and company presidents send their children, or into the public magnet school that rejects 80 percent of its applicants, their child is guaranteed admission into the Ivy League. The opposite is true. A 1997 survey of more than 1 million high school seniors by Paul Attewell of the City University of New York Graduate Center found that, except for a few superstars, attending a very competitive high school hurt students' chances of getting into a very selective college. The reason is that selective colleges take only a few students from each school. A student with a 2200 SAT score is not going to stand out at high school with several 2300s, but will be at the top of Yale's list in a school that has only one or two seniors who score over 2100. (The top score is now 2400.) Of course, those competitive high schools will still give your child a great education, and perhaps that is more important than which college sticker you get to put on your car."</p>

<p>Your thoughts?</p>

2

<p>I have seen top colleges accept a large number of kids from a class despite dire whispers among the parents and kids when it was discovered that there were many very qualified applicants applying to the same school. There are just not that many truly special applicants, that it becomes a dilemma for the ivies when there are a lot a bunch of them from one school. And anything below that category is a real roll of the dice to get in. Appications are distributed among the readers in an admissions office, and each application is read and evaluated on its own merits. It isn't until the very end of the process when the accept list is drawn, that a tally is made by school to make sure that the decisions were consistent.</p>

<p>The time this could be a problem is when an enormous numer of kids apply to a small college, where it truly tips the diversity figures. And, yes, that could affect decisions, and someone could end up getting reject that likely would have been accepted had there not been such a huge qualified applicant pool that year. That could also happen if your area happened to get a huge surge of qualified students, not necessarily from the same school. also, as the small, selective schools do need to keep an eye on those factors so not to have a significantly lopsided class. In fact, there are certain areas in the US that have so many applicants to certain schools, that some of those kid are declined that would have gotten in had they lived elsewhere. Geographic diversity is a factor that certain schools readily admit they watch in admissions. </p>

<p>However, in the top private schools that I know, there are extremely large number of kids getting into the top schools. Far more than most schools. And they are getting in with much lower gpas, and clearly lower class ranks. A student in the second quintile academically at most schools can eliminate top schools unless he has some pretty hot extras that the schools really want. A 3.5 on a 4.0 score is considered excellent in some of these rigorous highschools, and you can see from these boards that this threshhold is not at all impressive in general. Kids who are not #1 or #2 at unknown schools are usually eliminated in the most competitive college admissions arenas. </p>

<p>Actually where private school kid get hurt is in the larger schools that have strict grade cutoffs. UVa, for instance, is not interested in a 3.5 out of stater even if the program was top drawer. The state universities, in particular, tend to quickly go through each app, and if the numbers are not consistent with the other schools' transcripts, it is often not spotted and studied individually. Private school kids are often losers for merit awards, as they too, often have gpa cut offs, and they do not want to assess the grading scale of one school vs another in any great detail.</p>

<p>One thing families should watch when they select a private school is how many legacies, endowment families, celebrities and well connected are the ones getting into the top schools. When looking at college acceptance records, that should be taken into account. When you put your child in a selective private school it should be for the experience and education itself, not because you think it'll give him an edge in top school acceptances. Many families are very disappointed when it comes to college choice time when they have fervantly believed that the high school was going to make it easier to get the child into an ivy.</p>

<p>Also, it is unfortunate that unless a kid is at top of the charts in test scores, that the top schools, are not so interested in kids coming from unchallenging or unknown middle class high schools. If it is a backwater school or in a disadvantaged zone, there would be an exception, but many run of the mill public schools have never gotten a student into Harvard, even the valedictorian with straight A's.If you go to an independent college counselor often the first piece of advice given it the child is just starting at a run of a mill highschool, is to try to get into a high school with a better academic reputation that has a history of getting kids into top schools and has a rigorous curriculum. Of course the kid now has to perform at a high standard, but by taking that route he has shown the colleges how he can do among other kids who are also academically strong.</p>

3

<p>I disagree, Marian. He's right that the competive schools give kids a great education. I think that translates into better opportunites, overall, in the college admissions process. Many of the elite private high schools get a lot more than their share of kids into the elite colleges. HYPSM may take half the class, where at your average school, its possible that no one will be admitted.
I don't think colleges are as interested in"school for school" parity as they are for regional parity.</p>

4

<p>"The reason is that selective colleges take only a few students from each school."
That's not true. What is true is that it is indeed more difficult to stand out at tough high schools. So a BWRK at a competitive high school might seem only slightly above average there but would be considered the cream of the crop at a less prestigious school. A good education and lots of opportunities vs. lesser chance of standing out...it's a tradeoff..</p>

<p>but I wouldn't worry too much. At one high school I'm familiar with, Penn accepts over a dozen kids every year (it's not in or near PA). Harvard and MIT each admit half a dozen. The kids are just good.</p>

5

<p>I agree that elite colleges prefer to take the biggest fish out of the pond - and if the pond is filled primarily with big fish, then it makes it that much harder for a bigger fish to stand out.</p>

<p>Case in point: my goddaughter attended Hunter High School in Manhattan, composed of extremely talented, motivated, intelligent and super-achieving students. Many of the students apply to the super-elite colleges. My goddaughter was very disappointed that the only Ivy she was accepted to was Dartmouth. With her outstanding academic and activity record, she would have had a better chance of getting into other of her schools if she had attended a less exclusive high school - she would have definitely been the biggest fish in the pond. Of course, this is only my humble opinion.</p>

6

<p>well to agree with Jay- No one is guarenteed entry into the Ivy league and if that is the reason why you spend big bucks to send your kid to Hotchkiss, then you may be disappointed.</p>

<p>However if your intention was to get your kid the best opportunities you could, then you certainly could go far worse than finding a well financed & run private school.</p>

<p>Our objective was never to obtain a certain brand for the college sweatshirt- but to find the best education that was within our reach.</p>

<p>Older daughter attended a small private, where it was easier to stand out, and she was admitted to all of her schools.
Her sister attends a school where lots are admitted to Ivies every year, expecially Brown for some reason, but is much larger than the school she previously attended.
I considered having her stay at the smaller school, it would have been much easier for her to stand out, but as a criteria, that was outweighed by the rigor of classes, the extra curricular opportunities and the dedication and skill of the teachers at the larger school.</p>

<p>For her, I think those things will make more of a difference towards her success after high school, than being in a class where she had more opportunity to stand apart from the rest</p>

7

<p>Of course, the other side of the coin, bethel, is that your goddaughter got to spend her high school years at Hunter -- in the company of the kind of kids who go to Hunter, rather than in the more zoolike atmosphere of an ordinary high school. Also, she probably learned a lot more at Hunter than she would have elsewhere and therefore was better prepared for Dartmouth (or whatever other college she chose to attend).</p>

<p>I have a kid in a selective magnet program, and it seems to me that the main advantages of the program lie in the quality of the education and in the company of the types of students who attend such programs. So even if Jay Matthews is right about the detrimental effect on college admissions, I don't regret our family's decision to allow her to participate in this program. But still, it's something to think about.</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
...disappointed that the only Ivy she was accepted to was Dartmouth

[/quote]
That's some attitude of entitlement there, isn't it? I mean, part of the problem is the whole idea that all high-achieving kids must aspire to "Ivy" league colleges...and that somehow getting into one isn't good enough, the student must be admitted to many (or at least be admitted to HYP?).</p>

<p>I imagine that if that attitude is pervasive at a competitive high school, then there would be a lot of disappointed students. </p>

<p>It is probably true that the student at the competitive high school has more competition, especially if they simply follow the crowd at their school by applying to the most popular and prestigious Ivies that everyone else is targetting. But the flip side is that if you look at it from the perspective of who gets in overall, you will find that more students in the admitted class come from private independent prep schools or highly regarded public academic magnets than from ordinary public schools... it's just that they all come from different schools. So the odds that a given admitted student comes from a prestigious high school are pretty high. </p>

<p>Personally, I am glad that my kids attended more ordinary public high schools. Both got into their top choice colleges, but both were also surrounded by kids who would never have thought to apply to anything other than the state university, so neither kid had any particular expectation that they would end up anywhere else. I think that my daughter, in particular, had more flexibility and more of an opportunity to distinguish herself while exploring her own interests... and in the end that resulted in admission to elite private colleges. But we definitely noticed that there were very few public school kids at the local orientation meeting for admitted students, and at the same time just about every prestigious local private high school was represented. </p>

<p>So if the goal is for the kid to attend an elite college, maybe the best route is to choose a small, less prestigious but highly regarded private high school. That is, don't choose the most prestigious high school, but choose the 2nd or 3rd best one in your area -- which winnows out the competition but still gives the kid the advantage of coming from a name-brand high. </p>

<p>Though I think the better goal is for the kid to go wherever his or her interests and abilities are best served, and to use some imagination when it comes to choosing a college.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
Of course, the other side of the coin, bethel, is that your goddaughter got to spend her high school years at Hunter -- in the company of the kind of kids who go to Hunter, rather than in the more zoolike atmosphere of an ordinary high school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>i have to say that it is a little bit disingenious to typify public schools with "zoolike atmosphere"s. some parents would consider it an advantage to send their kids to schools where there is a "zoolike" diversity, rather than a homogenous one.</p>

<p>I think it's a really sad problem, myself coming from a diverse school, that it is harder for us to relate and befriend or converse with others from more homogenous populations. It's sad that kind of separation exists.</p>

<p>I agree that calmom's kids' experience is what you can get at a public school.</p>

10

<p>The concept does not apply across the board.</p>

<p>In some states, it is of great advantage to be in the top 10% or top 4% of one's school, so it may well be advantageous to stand out in a so-so school than be one of many in a more competitive hs. </p>

<p>Some private colleges, however, know some schools very well and take lots of kids from those schools, eg. 46 (not 50!:0) at Columbia from Stuy; a few dozens from Boston Latin to Harvard (both are public exams), lots from Andover, Exeter, etc... Still, the downside of attending such schools is that so many other kids from the same hs are applying to the same colleges. For the sake of diversity, the colleges will look to admit students from different hs in different localities. There, too, the bright student who stands out from among average students in a so-so school will have an edge over the student with the same profile from the more prestigious school that sends dozens of students from HYP. The idea is that the bright student from the so-so school would have performed even better had s/he been able to attend the more prestigious school. So a student from Podunk high which does not offer APs, scores 1500 on the SAT, has straight As in the most rigorous classes offered at Podunk, will have a slight edge over a student with 1500 on the SAT and maybe some APs from a known magnet school.</p>

11

<p>OK, my bad. I got my D the best (private) HS education I could, and when she asked I was able to reassure her that "You'll do well at wherever college you choose to attend." How foolish of me. Well I'm not making that mistake with my youngest. It's a weak public in some academic wasteland for her! Any suggestions on where that should be?</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
"You'll do well at wherever college you choose to attend."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And indeed, she will. She also should apply to a range of school and not have the mentality that "only" getting into Dartmouth is somehow not doing well in the admissions sweepstakes. </p>

<p>And troublesomejason, I agree you can get a great education in a public high school.</p>

13

<p>That statement (quotas for specific high schools) is simply not true. While yes it is true that colleges compare students at a specific high school to each other, they also compare high school to high school. So even the 20th best applicant from Stuyvesant to Ivy League University probably has a much better shot than the valedectorian of Bumblewood High. </p>

<p>Of course there is the realization that you not even be in the top 250-300 students in your class (that's why schools like Stuy don't rank).</p>

<p>But there IS an exception - public in-state colleges. Take Texas for example. You have a much better chance to get into any public college in Texas (including UT-Austin) from a worse high school because they are required to take the top 10% from each school (or something like that) and it is much easier to be top 10% at a weak school than a strong school.</p>

<p>And yeah for Marite for mentioning Stuy: GO PEGLEGS!</p>

14

<p>The statement logically makes sense, but I just don't see that happening. There are tons of kids that get into Columbia from Stuy, not to mention the countless acceptances from Yale at Choate. Maybe there's a location correlation besides the fact that these applicants are exceptional students coming from exceptional schools.</p>

15

<p>I see a problem with how merit aid is awarded at some schools. I understand that many elites do not offer merit aid. Less competitive schools award merit aid to a 3.8 with a 1200+ (old) from Bumblewood High School, and may not award award merit aid to a student with a 3.4 and 1380 (old) from a more competitive high school.</p>

16

<p>Marian,
I thoroughly disagree with Jay Mathews's statement, based on personal experience. Our local public high school, which is considered to be an excellent school (even on Mr. Mathew's lists,) only gets a handful of students into super-competitive colleges. The independent high school where we have been able to send our kids offers a simply superb education, much better than the public school. It's reputation for rigorous, stellar academics allows it to place a handful of graduates in EACH of the super-competitive colleges. (Those are two very different kinds of handfuls.) Oh, and it's far more diverse than the local public school.</p>

17

<p>Jay Mathews is always controversial (mostly by design, I think; he wants to get people talking about educational issues). That's why I posted the quote. I wanted to see whether well-informed parents agreed or disagreed with it.</p>

<p>As for diversity, I see no lack of the ethnic kind in the public magnet programs that I know. I do see a lack of academic diversity; you get entire classrooms where every kid is academically competent and serious about school. Whether this type of uniformity is advantageous or disadvantageous could be a subject for a whole thread in itself.</p>

18

<p>The assumption is sometimes made that a particular student would perform the same on the SATs and APs, regardless of where he or she attended high school. Just because a bright student scores a 2300, for example, after attending a rigorous prep school doesn't mean that the same student would do as well after attending a less challenging school, whether public or private. (And I'm not implying that only students from prep schools can score well on SATs) I believe the instruction and challenge at a school like Phillips Academy enriches and enhances a student's natural ability. Why else do the SAT Prep programs work? A rigorous HS is like a 4 year SAT Prep course. It's really not possible to assume that kids turn out the same wherever they go to high school. JMHO.</p>

19

<p>There is no assumption that a student who scores 2300 at Andover would score the same at Bumblewood High. But there is the plausible scenario that the student who scores 2200 at Bumblewood High could score 2300 at Andover. And that scenario is what adcoms consider and why a student from Bumblewood High might have an advantage over the Andover student with the same stats.</p>

20

<p>i wouldnt trade my four years at boarding school for an ivy acceptance. loved it.</p>