The experience of an Ivy reject

Parent Cafe
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<p>That may very well be the case and I can probably guess what hs we’re talking about (though that’s immaterial).</p>

<p>But it seems like no one will ever admit that the emperor has no clothes.</p>

<p>MOWC brought up an excellent point – in her neck of the woods, the peer culture would be, “Why on earth would you go anywhere other than UT – and Vandy if you’re really smart?” </p>

<p>It seems as though most parents on CC (myself included) have NO problem saying, “Well, that’s an unsophisticated mentality. If I lived there, I would just ignore that culture and work to send my bright, motivated student wherever I could that best fit his needs, finances permitting, and I would pay no attention to what the masses in my area thought of my choice and counsel my children to do the same.”</p>

<p>But the following are ALSO evidence of an unsophisticated mentality:

  • “The only schools that are worthwhile are the Ivies and maybe a few select others.
    All the others are just sort of OK choices, if you have to.”
  • “The only schools that are worthwhile are in the Northeast.”
  • “The only places you’ll ever want to find a job are in the Northeast. (There’s no money
    to be made elsewhere.)”</p>

<p>These are EQUALLY UNSOPHISTICATED. Just because the speaker may live in a $2.5 million home in Scarsdale or New Canaan or (I’m blanking on the Boston equivalent), may have traveled, may have a hot shot job, etc. doesn’t make that mentality any less unsophisticated than MOWC’s hypothetical Tennessee speaker. </p>

<p>So, again, if that was the environment you wound up in, why wouldn’t you sneer at it the same way that you’d sneer at the Tennessee peer culture? I don’t mean sneer at it in the sense of being rude to others, but in the sense of “whatever – I see no need to be bound by your narrow view of the world, I’m more sophisticated and worldly than that.”</p>

<p>The people who <em>don’t</em> know there are plenty of great schools and opportunities and that HYP doesn’t hold the patent, who <em>don’t</em> know that there is money and opportunity and sophistication in every single part of the country, who think that Rice and Wellesley and U of Chicago are “settling for second best” – they ARE hicks. They’re untraveled, and they don’t know as much as they think they do. They’re just as hick as the stereotypical bumble who never has left East Bumble. Living in the northeast and having more money doesn’t absolve them from being hicks. </p>

<p>I get the Northeast mentality; I really do, having grown up there myself. But it’s just as provincial as the flyover mentality which they decry.</p>

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<p>So much depends on where you want to live as adult and what you want to do. If you want to be a successful businessman in Ft. Worth, Texas, the best thing on the planet would be to be on that undefeated Horned Frogs football team right now. Cornell? Princeton? Yawn. You were on that recordbreaking '09 team at TCU? I worship you, sure you can have my business.</p>

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<p>Building on pizzagirl’s post- It’s important to recognize the realities, too. A lot of people who grew up in middle Tennessee (I did not) really love it here (I do). They have every intention of making it their home after college and raising a family here. The reality is that the UTenn degree or the Vandy degree is going to serve you better than an Ivy degree. You can still live and work here with an Ivy degree- or Rice, Texas, Carleton, Michigan et al- but the BEST networking and what will serve you best is TN, Vandy and other SEC- in that order. There are entire top law firms here filled with Vandy grads.
I still believe in broadening one’s horizons and experiencing different parts of the country, so I’m not saying it’s stupid to attend an elite school in the northeast.<br>
It just isn’t the requirement for success that we sometimes think it is here on CC. It seems to me that luck plays a role. I know I got one job over hundreds of other applicants (lawyer job) because the name of my top 4 law school appealed to the hiring attorney and got me to the head of the pile. Perhaps 6 out of 10 other hiring people wouldn’t have cared, but this guy liked it. Similarly, my kid just used his Ivy to his advantage by putting himself in an applicant pool OUTSIDE of his school and he appealed to a particular hiring group. It can work- but so can Alabama and Tennessee!</p>

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<p>Yeah, um, baseball and football recruiting is actually based completely on merit.
I knew a guy that was shut out of H, P and S despite being in the top 50 in the country in math. And he was not one-sided–he actually became a professional musician later. I knew another guy who was rejected at Brown who graduated from MIT in 2 years with straight A+'sand was recruited to their faculty. Was his rejection supposed to be an indication for him that he wasn’t really one of the most talented students in the country, sort of like the captain of the football team who didn’t realize he was good enough for D1?</p>

<p>And what sort of message does it send if someone gets into one top school and not another (and by top I mean HYP.) What does it mean when someone is recognized as being one of the top students in the country by various, well-known awards that are as selective as ivy admission but doesn’t gain that ivy admission letter? </p>

<p>If you don’t know why people say that admission to top schools is a crapshoot, it’s because you have a limited experience with top students.</p>

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<p>I don’t really know why you are referencing my post to make your point, actually, as I was simply saying that everyone is going to be disappointed in life. It’s just a part of life. </p>

<p>You are not required to read my FIRST post on this thread, however, in that post, I pointed out that the Ivy Adcoms themselves frequently say that they could fill thier classes three times over with qualified students. I really don’t think one way or the other about the Ivy league.</p>

<p>I happen to have grown up and raised my kids in an area much like the OP’s where many, many kids go to the Ivies and where many parents WENT to the Ivies…Many of my highschool friends attended, back when if Dad went to P, you went or the same with H or Y or whatnot. I also watched friends have nervous breakdowns, at least three, who went to the Ivies…etc…</p>

<p>I think this story says more about OP’s daughter than it says about the Ivy league or Ivy league admissions. If every kid on this board who does not get admitted is going to have to get a Rhodes scholarship in order to have been ‘successful’? There are going to be a lot of extremely unsuccessful kids. </p>

<p>I also don’t care that much, to be honest. Just sad so many kids are going to define thier worth around this issue for a few months. They’ll get on with things. Or not.</p>

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<p>Exactly, missypie and MOWC. </p>

<p>But somehow, when someone in Fort Worth thinks that TCU is the be-all-end-all, that’s evidence of provincialism, but when someone in Boston thinks that HYP is the be-all-end-all and the only place from where successful people come, that’s “understandable peer culture” that needs to be honored. It’s all the same provincialism.</p>

<p>I had to laugh at a recent post I saw on CC where the poster had asked for advice for her kid, some schools (that happened to be in the midwest) were cited that were perfect fits for the kid’s criteria, but the parent responded “Oh, no, the midwest is out” (and not for financial reasons). Yeah, because they are such hicks in the midwest, they don’t go out of their comfort zone to go to school, unlike those sophisticated East Coast kids who don’t hesitate to – oh, never mind, LOL. </p>

<p>I realize we’ve gone far afield from the OP. I <em>totally</em> get wanting to go to excellent schools (Ivies included) for the excellent education. What I just don’t get is the mentality of substituting the judgment and values of other people in your area – whether those people are “HYP or bust” or “Football school or bust” – for your own.</p>

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<p>Merit and how many they need for your position this year. Isn’t it similar to HYP admissions? If the eight best kickers in the country all want to play for the same team, most will be disappointed.</p>

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<p>Well, talk about a point sailing over your head. For the GAZILLIONth time, H is choosing 2,000 students out of 20,000 qualified applicants, so presuming the applicant was in a reasonable ballpark to apply in the first place (that is, he wasn’t waltzing in with a 3.0 GPA and 1800 SAT’s), the fact that he wasn’t chosen didn’t mean that H thought he was “bad” or “not worthy” or “not good enough.” It’s just that there are only so many spots that they can choose from. What “message” does it send if a kid gets into H but not Y or P? It doesn’t send ANY “message.” It just means that on that particular day, H chose him and Y and P didn’t. That’s all. There are no greater messages being sent, either by the Ivy League or by the universe at large.</p>

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<p>There’s a tremendous amount of politics involved in athletics, but I’m not going to even get into it. It isn’t based entirely on merit. Coaches favor certain kids. Some kids are better at the politics, etc…and playing time is a huge indicator of who will get better. See: Outliers, which raises the interesing point that mastery, while partially based on aptitude, is also based on hours practiced…in math, music, athletics…etc…It’s not all merit in any field, ever.</p>

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<p>Also having lived in the NE and now the Midwest, I agree with MOWC and Pizzagirl. It saddens me sometimes the regional-centric attitude. And yes, I agree that to the rest of the country it feels somewhat unsophisticated. The irony of this is interesting. Congrats to the OP. University of Chicago is world reknowned. The awards undoubtedly deserved. And congrats to the OPs offspring who has also most likely developed a more sophisticated world view having spent 4 years in Chicago. It’s not stupid, as MOWC points out, to want to spend a few years in the NE. It is stupid and, yes, unsophisticated, to think that the NE is the center of the universe or to think that the OP still has “sour grapes.”</p>

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<p>NMD, Congratulations on your D’s remarkable achievements. I thought your post was thoughtful and I think you started this thread for all the right reasons.</p>

<p>I also see that you have been on this discussion board long enough to know exactly what kind of responses you would eventually see; for that, I think you are very courageous.</p>

<p>I only have one question: My D also did not get into her first choice of school, but didn’t get the Goldwater OR the Rhodes. Wha’ happened?</p>

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<p>You might do well to learn the difference between “not selected” and “rejected.” Brown DIDN"T SELECT your acquaintance to fill their freshman class, because they had only so many spots they could fill. They didn’t REJECT him in the sense of telling him “you’re not really as talented as you think you are.” </p>

<p>Here’s a concept for you to chew on. Brown (or anyone else) can choose to “reject” a given student for their class, and at the same time, not be saying “We don’t think this student is talented or has potential.”</p>

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<p>exactly Pizzagirl. In fact, they are clear that this is NOT the case. They know they can’t take everyone who is capable of doing well there. It’s just not possible. Sad but true.</p>

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<p>I think the point of this thread is to remind people who are, technically, “rejected” not to let that define them and to recognize that there are a whole host of reasons why a particular college may not find room for a particular student that has nothing to do with that student’s potential for success. As I’ve been following this thread I’m surprised with much of the negative reaction. Thinking of the OP’s original intent, I’m reminded of the old saying “no good deed goes unpunished.” The fact is, many people on CC are obsessed, rightly or not, with the Ivies. Just look at how many have screen names with the word Ivy in it! Look at how active those boards are. Not everyone who aspires to an Ivy League school will get in and many will be greatly disappointed, so why not have a thread to comfort them and let them know that being rejected or not being admitted (however you wish to phrase it) is not the end of the world? There are hundreds of great schools out there, not just 8.</p>

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<p>The conversation here hasn’t been about students who are upset for not getting into their top school choices. Such disappointment is totally understandable. The conversation has been about how certain cultures “push” the Ivies as the be-all-end-all and how that contributes to or heightens disappointment – because it’s one thing to be disappointed in failing to achieve something you set out to, it’s another altogether to then feel “ashamed” or “unworthy” because you’re “only” going to some other perfectly excellent choice because OMG-what-will-the-neighbors-think-that’s-not-how-it’s-done-here. And I’m just challenging the convention that one needs to care about what the neighbors think when the neighbors think things that are stupid or reflect a very shallow and limited understanding of the world. I wonder why so many of you seem to give so much power to what others around you think of your kid’s college choices. </p>

<p>My neighbors “don’t understand” why I’m schlepping my juniors to a bunch of different colleges all over the country. Why would you ever want to go to school in the East Coast? Aren’t they scary out there, with funny accents? And what’s wrong with the University of Illinois? Well, so what that that’s the “peer pressure” I face? <em>I</em> know better, and that’s all that counts, to me. Their opinions are trees falling in a forest not making any sound, as far as I’m concerned. So they “don’t understand” why I’d look out of state. So the kids in Brookline thought “poor NMD’s daughter, poor thing only made it into U of C.” Who cares?</p>

<p>Don’t any of you have an internal compass of what you know to be true that helps you rise above what others think? And isn’t that an important part of parenting, to tell your kids not to make decisions on what their peers might think because for all you know their peers’ thought processes may be wrong?</p>

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<p>“nd what sort of message does it send if someone gets into one top school and not another (and by top I mean HYP.) What does it mean when someone is recognized as being one of the top students in the country by various, well-known awards that are as selective as ivy admission but doesn’t gain that ivy admission letter”</p>

<p>Since the overwhelming majority of students applying to Ivies qualify for admission, getting an Ivy rejection means that one is one of the many outstanding students whom Ivies didn’t have space to admit. </p>

<p>If one applied and was Ivy rejected and doesn’t have the ability to understand that an Ivy rejection doesn’t usually mean that one is unqualified for Ivies, then I one’s critical thinking skills are so deficient that IMO one is unqualified for Ivies.</p>

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<p>Let’s not kid ourselves too much here folks. Every year, on the results threads, we see some students who get multiple ivy acceptances and few if any rejections. And we also see students who get multiple ivy rejections and few acceptances from any college. </p>

<p>Sure, it is possible that the multiple acceptances of kid A and the multiple rejections of kid B were purely the outcome of chance. But it is also very possible that kid A had a more attractive overall application package than kid B. Nothing more, nothing less.</p>

<p>Being “qualified” for ivy admission is a pretty meaningless term. Anyone who graduates high school and takes the required standardized tests is technically “qualified”. Since it is possible to graduate from an ivy without taking on too many academic challenges, it also doesn’t mean all that much to say that someone is “qualified to do the work needed to graduate”.</p>

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<p>lol. It’s good to see that nothing ever changes on cc. :wink: This thread has lost all relevance to the OP’s OP and has become another stroll down many of our well-trampled lanes. Nice to see y’all. ;)</p>

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<p>“Being “qualified” for ivy admission is a pretty meaningless term. Anyone who graduates high school and takes the required standardized tests is technically “qualified”.”</p>

<p>Not true the way people like Harvard’s dean of admissions use “qualified.” Such people use “qualified” to mean that the applicant’s record demonstrates that if accepted to Harvard, the student would have the ability to graduate from Harvard, something that wouldn’t be the case for the majority of high school graduates.</p>

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<p>^^ Not the majority of high school graduates, but a very large proportion of kids (or kids of parents) who frequent C.C. We are talking simply about graduating with enough credits and not flunking out of Harvard.</p>