<p>Most people can't name the Ivy League besides HYP.</p>
<p>I think Cornell is worse off, though.</p>
<p>I think Penn does pretty well on the WSJ ranking, considering that they didn't survey Penn's medical school while they surveyed Columbia's and Yale's, both of which are less selective and less prestigious than Penn's. Penn's percentage is only 1.5 less than Columbia's. So taking into account the biased section of surveyed school, it's about even. </p>
<p>Furthermore, to say that Penn isn't great due to that lame ranking is saying that Williams is *significantly better than Brown, Columbia, Cornell. I don't think even other Ivy posters here would conceed that. Again, I don't think that ranking means anything because it's more reflective on the culture of the school - how preprofessional or graduate school-seeking it is.</p>
<p>As mentioned, Penn is very preprofessional and career oriented, due to Wharton's prescence on campus, which also encourages the rest of the school to get jobs rather than go to graduate programs. </p>
<p>Also, the law ranking you made only reflects Yale's law school. In fact, Penn does fine at Harvard. Penn sends the most total matriculants to Harvard behind HYP.</p>
<p>And just for the record, since you also used single-program data, Yale doesn't do very well at matriculating people into Wharton MBA compared to other Ivy schools like H, P, Dart, and of course Penn.</p>
<p>Penn may send a lot of matriculants, but you have to remember that it is a much larger school. You have to look in percentage terms.</p>
<p>The reason only the very top schools are surveyed is obvious. It's because that's the only way to truly show where the best applicants are coming from. In the case of Harvard or Yale alumni, of course there might not be as many of them at Northwestern, Wharton or Duke business schools - because they all went to HBS. </p>
<p>In the case of Yale Law, 90% of the admits choose to go there - the school basically gets anyone it wants. The other top law schools have pathetic yield rates by comparison, making it useless to look at the composition of their entering classes.</p>
<p>WOW and now you're implying that Yale Law school is the greatest thing in the world and that other schools like Harvard LS is pathetic? I hope you realize how ridiculous that sounds. </p>
<p>For the record, the data you use for Penn is also outdated. For the most recent round of admission, Penn would rank around 16, and around 11 if only CAS is included. </p>
<p>
[quote]
In the case of Yale Law, 90% of the admits choose to go there
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In the past round of admission Yale LS's Yield at Penn was about 72% out of 7 accepted students, lower than Harvard, which had a yield 75% for students accepted from penn. For the two years before that, Yale Law actually had a 0% Yield at Penn out of 6 accepted students, which is why it is so low on your "ranking."</p>
<p>So it depends on the culture of the school. Using admit data from one graduate program is just ridiculous.</p>
<p>Aurelius, please provide a link to your admission data (including applicants, accepted students and matriculants) on UPenn and CAS applicants to the top law schools over the past four years.</p>
<p>The fact is, YLS's yield rate is consistently much, much higher than those of any other competitor law schools, and has been for quite some time. No, HLS is not a pathetic law school and I never implied that. HLS is clearly one of the top five or so. If you want to see many reasons why I think my link is the best Pre-Law ranking, go to that thread and read it. It is not a perfect ranking, but, because of the fact that almost nobody turns down Yale Law School - and the fact that almost everyone who applies to YLS gets into every other law school that they apply to - it is much better than any other arbitrary ranking you might suggest.</p>
<p>Also, I will say again that by "best" Pre-Law I mean the programs that will get you into the "best" law school, not the programs that will get you into any old law school. Clearly, if you do reasonably well at any of the top 200 colleges or universities in the country, and score within the standard LSAT range, you will get into a law school somewhere.</p>
<p>penn was a doormat for a long time staight through the 90's. many current employers graduated from other elite schools during this time. therefore, outside of u.s. news, penn gets little respect in my experience (among elitists)</p>
<p>True, I would imagine Penn's fortunes -- currently in the Ivy league dumps (statistically speaking) -- will be improving a bit as the school has become slightly more selective over the past 10 years.</p>
<p>Penn used to be really trashy and the "doormat," but it's doing better. I agree though that it has yet to beat Cornell and Dartmouth.</p>
<p>I suppose Goldman Sachs isn't an "elite employer"? Their partner list is DOMINATED by Penn grads (straight outta big daddy Hank's mouth). The actual number is 103 Penn graduates who are partners or managing directors as of early 2005. </p>
<p>Now tell me which "elite employer" you are talking about? Johnson and Johnson? Most Penn kids don't want to actually aspire to peddle lubrications and baby bottle nipples. </p>
<p>What sort of facts can you provide that Cornell/Dart is better than Penn? I can say that the University of Cats-arse, Wyoming is exceptional but that holds no weight. What sort of data are you using? Have you adjusting for the composition of the students (Penn is pre-professional)? I would argue that Penn has significantly (and I mean by quite a lot) career services than Cornell/Dartmouth. Heck, its on par with Harvard. (And yes I can actually provide stats, for example Wharton grads typically make up most of the banking class at the top BBs. And banking is the industry most Ivy kids try to enter. A cursory walk through the career fair/recruiters on campus may help verify this fact easily.)</p>
<p>I find this thread pretty hilarious actually.</p>
<p>I love the "Ivy League dumps" remark. BTW slightly more selective? It went from 40% to mid teens now (17.69% for the entire school). You think thats slight? What is your definition of slight? I suggest, before imparting your infinite wisdom, you check a dictionary to verify facts. That would be a helpful move.</p>
<p>Here are the various college majors with their jobs/graduate school info (for CAS):</p>
<p>The wharton survey:</p>
<p>SEAS:</p>
<p>Now go through those and tell me how Penn is the "doormat" Ivy.</p>
<p>Here is the Cornell one to contrast:</p>
<p>So exactly how great is Cornell compared to Penn again?</p>
<p>BTW for people using WSJ rankings as a resource:</p>
<p>Do you think that ranking is credible when they consider YALE MEDICAL as one of the best school there? Do any of you have any sort of understanding of the best medical schools from practitioners and professionals in the industry? I have yet to see a recent publication naming it one of the top 3 medical schools.</p>
<p>I don't care what others say. There is nothing wrong with Penn. It is still a top, prestigious school, whether it's better than Cornell/Dartmouth or not. Thousands of applicants would love the opportunity to attend this school. I am happy with the opportunity. I don't care what the Ivy League rankings are. No one could ever make a case that Penn is not a top school. I think some people don't view it as being prestigious because Penn is such a huge school. At times while walking on campus, I can't believe how many students go here. That sort of feels like going to a state/public school. It doesn't have that small, personal feeling that most would associate with an Ivy.</p>
<p>People who feel insecure about their own school often go badmouth other schools. I honestly don't mind having Yalies here trash talking Penn for that reason. Conversly, how many Penn posters have gone to forums of lesser schools claiming them to be "dumps, stastically." Lol absolutely hillarious. I especially like how they keep putting Penn below Cornell. Is that supposed to be a literary device?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Aurelius, please provide a link to your admission data (including applicants, accepted students and matriculants) on UPenn and CAS applicants to the top law schools over the past four years.
[/quote]
Full admissions statistics.
<a href="http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/gradprof/law/law_stats.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/gradprof/law/law_stats.htm</a></p>
<p>Notice how the stats have improved dramatically for the last year. I think that looks pretty good! As for what school those applicants came from, no doubt heavily from CAS for top schools. If you look at the career reports for Wharton and SEAS, there are not many who seek law school.</p>
<p>Also, Yale Law certainly does well on the ranking dues to small size, which allows it greater selectivity. That doesn't mean it's a better school than HLS. (Where's Byerly on the Penn forum when you really need him, lol)</p>
<p>Yes, I don't see how any of the Ivy League schools can be questioned in terms of quality and prestige. They're all good, regardless of rankings. I have many friends who are attending Penn, and they love everything about it.</p>
<p>By the way, Aurelius, you said, "People who feel insecure about their own school often go badmouth other schools." I find it a little odd then for you to say, "I especially like how they keep putting Penn below Cornell. Is that supposed to be a literary device?"</p>
<p>Make no mistake. That simply says that Penn should not be held below Cornell. I did not actually say that the former is better. (i.e. all the ivy schools can be arguably equal). I admit I didn't write that clearly. ;-/</p>
<p>Nice posts. Here are some statistics from my high school in terms of acceptances for the various Ivies for the class of 2006:</p>
<p>Brown: 56 applied/6 accepted
Cornell: 157 applied/39 accepted
Columbia: 119 applied/20 accepted
Dartmouth: 35 applied/4 accepted
Harvard: 30 applied/4 accepted
Penn: 59 applied/4 accepted
Princeton: 17 applied/5 accepted
Yale: 28 applied/3 accepted</p>
<p>So saying that Penn is a "statistical dump" and Cornell is better is quite odd to me.</p>
<p>I don't think posterx was referring to admissions rates, but rather to admit rates from YLS or something along that line.</p>
<p>mahras2 - Penn must not think much of your high school. The acceptance rates for Penn are inconsistent with the national averages. For Cornell, they accepted 24% of those who applied from your school, and they accepted about 24% of those who applied overall. </p>
<p>Either penn has a reason for accepting only 6% of those who applied from your school (as in, they dont like your school's graduates), or your fudging the numbers just to try to prove some type of point.</p>