<p>I'd like to know the opinions of the learned parents on this forum regarding the future value of taking AP classes as they pertain to college admissions. I'm aware that AP classes (read: rigorous, challenging instruction at the h.s. level) are favored by highly-selective colleges when considering applicants for admission. However, I've been told that the trend among these same institutions is that AP classes are becoming a non-factor and that trend will continue because of concerns that AP instruction is becoming watered down and success in these class is no longer a predictor of future success in higher ed. Is this a shared opinion on this forum? I must admit that it takes me aback when I hear of students who have taken 10-15 AP courses in h.s. If all other things are equal, do they have more success in the application process than those who do not? Or will the trend away from AP classes continue? Get those crystal balls polished!</p>
<p>In most school systems, the only alternative to taking AP or IB classes is taking much less rigorous classes designed for students who are working at a much lower level than would be expected of applicants to top colleges. That is really no choice at all.</p>
<p>Beil,</p>
<p>Admissions is just one aspect of the AP. Once admitted, depending upon the score and the school, a student can gain advanced standing and earn credit toward degree requirements. With the cost of college, finishing in less than 4 years or avoiding a costly fifth year provide reward beyond just getting in.</p>
<p>If awarding AP credits begins to adversely effect the colleges they will continue to give less college credit for AP or IB courses. Examples may include students graduating early, less students to fill up general ed. courses (sometimes taught by TA's and less expensive to teach, freeing up profs for higher level classes), more students taking grad classes as undergrads.</p>
<p>I once read on an MIT admission blog by an admissions person at MIT that most admitted students have around 5 AP classes. Don't know if that is actually true or not but that is what he stated.</p>
<p>I can't see getting around it in HS due to the reasons stated above in Marians post.</p>
<p>Hopefully, the AP Audit will help in this regard. As an AP teacher, I can only say how disappointed I am when I read/hear about AP courses being watered down. </p>
<p>I have no problems with the current trend to encourage as many students as possible to take AP courses. I tend to agree that students benefit greatly from the rigor even if, perhaps especially if they struggle to be successful. It is the responsibility of the teacher however to not lower their expectations or standards in order to accomodate lower-achieving students. What must happen instead is that expectations remain consistently high and that students are required to rise to the occasion in order to meet them. I think I have a responsibility as a teacher to be available to my students for extra help and support outside of the normal class time, but from bell to bell, the standards need to be high and the students need to meet them.</p>
<p>To wharfrat2 and other teachers: What do you think about watering down AP courses in terms of methods of teaching and format, rather than content?</p>
<p>At my daughter's high school, the content of AP courses is definitely not watered down -- as reflected by the excellent scores that the students typically receive on AP tests. But the way in which many of the courses are managed is a far cry from what would be done in a real college course. For example, the history teachers tend to give separate tests on the textbook and on the content of their lectures; the students are not expected to synthesize and master the content from both sources for a single test, the way they would be in a true college course. The economics teacher gives DAILY quizzes to ensure that students keep up with the reading; this would never be done in a college course. </p>
<p>Are AP teachers doing their students a disservice by teaching them college-level material in a high school format? Would the kids be better off if the courses were taught like real college courses -- with only a small number of assessments -- all of them with very high stakes -- in the course of a semester?</p>
<p>I have heard of other teachers doing those kinds of things. The guy who followed me at my previous school collects and grades notebooks for example.</p>
<p>I don't do any of the things you just mentioned. I also make sure to put at least a handful of questions that we have not discussed in class but that are in the textbook in my tests.</p>
<p>One thing I will do is allow my students to correct any incorrect items on their exams for 1/2 the points they missed. They have to identify the correct answer and cite where they got it from. Actually, their grades don't figure into my motives for doing this at all, they are just the carrot and the stick. I do it because I want them to see as many A.P. type MC questions as often as possible over the course of the year.</p>
<p>I would also add that my grades are weighted very heavily. 90% of a student's grade is test grades.</p>
<p>BTW they are sophomores in their first AP class.</p>
<p>Thanks for the information, wharfrat.</p>
<p>I like your approach better than what's done at my daughter's school.</p>
<p>As an AP teacher, I second the comments regarding the AP audit. Students getting 1's and 2's should not be aceing the course at their HS. The ultimate measure of whether or not an AP course has sufficient rigor is the exam--everyone in the country takes the same exam, on the same material.</p>
<p>Although I would argue that the exam scores are not the only evidence of a rigorous course.</p>
<p>I do feel that when students are taking 10, 12 or more APs during high school it either dilutes the value of the AP or is an indication of overworked, overstressed high school students. When students get to college, they generally will take 4 or 5 classes a semester, and even that course load will generally at least one class that is seen as less demanding intellectually - that is, some sort of elective chosen because it seems fun or interesting. How does it make sense for these same students to be taking 5 or more APs simultaneously in high school?</p>
<p>I am also very disturbed by the trend, at least here on CC, to view every available AP as somehow being mandatory: that is, if the school offers AP Calc, the student <em>must</em> take it -- those who ponder whether to take AP Calc instead are subject to strict admonitions about how AP Stats is taken less seriously... and woe to the student who considers dropping math altogether after completing precalc. </p>
<p>So I think what once was an opportunity for capable students to pursue more advanced study in areas where they were strongest or most interested, has turned into a burden. And whereas there was a time when college ad coms could draw some conclusions about the students abilities and interests from the pattern of APs chosen, there now simply has been a raised bar across the board that renders the kid with a dozen APs as indistinguishable from his peers as a kid with no advanced courses would have appeared a twenty years ago. If you crank up the volume for everything, things just get noisier.... but it isn't any easier to hear what is being said. </p>
<p>Anyway... I've seen this mostly in abstract, here on CC.... fortunately my kids didn't go to high schools that allowed that many APs. My son's high school offered no more than 4 or 5 APs.... my daughter's high school offered more, but was set up in such a way that it would be very difficult for a student to fit that many into their schedule. I'm grateful for that.</p>
<p>I think a reasonable number of APs can be valuable -- it gives the student an opportunity to experience a more rigorous approach to a subject, as well as to demonstrate their ability to do college work via an exam. But I think it is one of those things that makes sense in moderation.</p>
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woe to the student who considers dropping math altogether after completing precalc.
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<p>My daughter got some flack from her friends (and I got flack from their parents) for allowing her to omit math from her 12th grade schedule after completed AP BC Calculus in 11th grade.</p>
<p>The world has truly gone nuts when taking multivariable calculus in high school has become an expectation.</p>
<p>DS1 only takes APs in classes that interest him -- no gratuitous exams for him! He has also spread them out over the course of high school, so he took three soph year and three junior year. Senior year he'll take three or four. He doesn't go crazy studying, he likes the material, and he does well.</p>
<p>I've seen kids taking 6-7 APs this spring and I think it's nuts. I proctored eight exams and I was exhausted -- I can't imagine how drained these kids are by now, and they don't get out of school until mid-June!</p>
<p>Keep in mind that some of the APs offered by high schools are taught over the course of an entire year when they would only be semester courses in colleges. So racking up a large number of APs in some cases make actually not be quite as impressive as it sounds.</p>
<p>I know I'm asking for speculation, and that's sometimes pointless, but am I understanding correctly--the consensus here sees AP programs remaining strong? Would you agree that one way to beef up a high school's curriculum is to add more AP classes?</p>
<p>Either that or IB. The downside to IB is that it is expensive to implement and it takes a long time to get in place. A school or school system could raise the level of rigor more immediately with A.P.</p>
<p>The Audit that has been put in place by college board while not flawless at least insures that systems are cognizant of the level of rigor and scholarship that the program entails. </p>
<p>I would repeat my point from an earlier post though that A.P. exam results are not the only measure of the quality of an A.P. program. A variety of other factors come into play with regard to scores. For example, as I stated before my students in A.P. U.S. History are sophomores. Nationwide, sophomores comprise only 9% of all U.S. History exam takers. That means they are competing with students who are at least a year ahead of them developmentally. s</p>
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Either that or IB. The downside to IB is that it is expensive to implement and it takes a long time to get in place.
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<p>There are also political objections to IB in some communities. It has a certain international focus and subtle political agenda that can rub some people the wrong way. In addition, from what I have seen (my daughter just completed an IB diploma program), it can be difficult to implement IB in a way that's fully compatible with the needs and preference of science-oriented kids. And a lot of today's top students are science oriented.</p>
<p>In my district, 10-14 APs is the norm for top 5-10% students. Class ranking drive them to do this. They have no choice. Besides, it costs $110 per AP. The college board makes money out of the test.</p>
<p>I think if teachers don't have advanced degree in a subject then they should not teach AP classes. Schools should make it easier for kids to take real college classes instead. The UC system allows kids to take at most 2 classes per term but kids cannot take advantage because the schools don't give weighted GPA if kids take classes outside of school.</p>
<p>First, the cost of an A.P. exam this year was only $83.00 or at least that was the cost of the U.S. History exam. Late exams cost more, but the cost of taking the exam on the original date was $83.00. If your school charged $110.00 then they made a bunch of money off of people.</p>
<p>Second, I know many A.P. teachers who do not hold advanced degrees in their subject area who are very effective at teaching their courses as evidenced by exam scores of their students.</p>
<p>How can hs's allow students to take 5 or 6 AP courses at a time and then claim that they are taught with the same rigor as a college level class?</p>
<p>Our hs district has recognized this fallacy and, while it offers 20+ AP courses, it does not allow frosh or sophs to enroll in them and does not generally allow student to take more than 3 at a time.</p>
<p>The result is that the classes can be taught with the same rigor as college level equivelents and our students enter college with the knowledge of what will be expected of them. The corollary to this policy is that honors and regualar college prep class sections are also taught at a higher level because so many college bound students are taking them. For instance our son took non-honors English/Lit classes, scored 710 on his SAT verbal and has received mostly A's on the 6+ writing intensive college courses he has taken. In these regualar hs classes he was taught good grammar and taught how to write reasonably well. They were far beyond remedial level classes.</p>
<p>Another unwritten district policy is to adopt a relatively rigourous grading policy which too prep our students for college level work. A B-(83) in APCalcBC resulted in a 5 AP exam score and a 3-A's & 1-B in his college math courses taken and at a college(RPI) which has a well deserved rep for very little grade inflation.</p>
<p>In a time when parents and students complain if Johnnie or Janey get a lowly B or C in hs, our folks expect that his will occur with nary a complaint. And those transcripts with a paultry 6 AP classes and the occasional sub-90 final grade does not seem to faze adcoms evaluating our students brcause of the academic reputation the district has earned.</p>
<p>So if posters here are concerned about the rigor of AP courses, look no further than you hs's academic policies.</p>