<p>I*t seems to me this betrays a lack of confidence in the degree to which AP classes prepare the students in particular topics (especially Calculus).*</p>
<p>Probably
I don't think Ds school allows students to place out of a class using AP credit alone- especially calculus. Its possible they can test into a higher foriegn language class however.
[quote]
Mathematics, Calculus AB/BC: One unit of credit is granted for scores of 4 or 5 on either, but not both, of the mathematics exams. A student may not receive credit for both the AP test and Math 111. Placement is determined in consultation with faculty members. Reed does not grant credit for the Calculus AB Subgrade.
<p>Calculus IS the course that is reportedly the most often repeated.</p>
<p>I tried hard to compare like with like in my posts, but that does not come through. Take 5 profs of American history at any college, and ask them to teach a survey course in American history; ten to one, there will not be a great deal of overlap in their choice of topics and readings. Some will emphasize political history, some cultural history, some gender, some diplomatic history, etc... Not so with the AP courses and intro-science classes I instanced: exactly the same curriculum and exactly the same textbook, but very different pace.</p>
<p>I'm done with this topic, as repeating myself for the fourth time is not very productive.</p>
<p>Ek:
Thanks for posting the links, in particular to the Harvard Gazette article.
My point, exactly. A college student would not be expected to repeat an intro class; but students who've taken APs don't seem to do all that well in the same classes in college.
S took AP classes because they were the most challenging classes available in his school. But that is different from saying they were the same as college classes.</p>
<p>Marite wrote: "Not so with the AP courses and intro-science classes I instanced: exactly the same curriculum and exactly the same textbook, but very different pace."</p>
<p>Occasionally the pace is faster at the high school - regardless of the "name" of the institution. One simply cannot make blanket statements regarding any aspect of AP.</p>
<p>I'm confused by post #43. (AP students don't do "all that well" in the "same" courses in college? First of all, are they the same? And if they are, these students do worse in college?)</p>
<p>Marite, it is very common for a person to be able to acquire math skills well enough to pass an exam give at or near the time of the course, but not be entirely confident about those skills. That's why I discontinued math study, actually -- I could get good grades, but I never had a sense of really understanding what I was doing. I think the real test of understanding would have been if I could take what I knew and apply it to a new situation or problem -- and I couldn't. So I can see why a student would feel that they want reinforcement with introductory calculus before moving on. </p>
<p>I mean, math is one of those areas where extra practice can be really, really helpful.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many high school and college educators surveyed by Sadler and Tai cited the value of AP courses, widely regarded as the most rigorous offered in most high schools. But college students in this study who had taken AP science courses, scored a 5 on the exam, and then took an introductory college course in the same discipline averaged a college grade of only 90, even after the added study at the college level. Students with an AP score of 4 averaged 87 in freshman science courses in the same subject; students who scored a 3 averaged 84; and students who took a non-AP high school honors course averaged 82. Sadler and Tai attributed roughly half the difference between these grades and the mean college grade of 80 to background variables unrelated to taking an AP course.</p>
<p>"In general," Sadler says, "it appears that the educational benefits of an AP science course as opposed to a regular high school honors course are smaller than students and teachers have been led to believe." He advocates that colleges and universities tighten their awarding of AP credit, since many students currently use AP credit to avoid college science courses altogether.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Beats me why students who'd already taken an AP course in a particular subject and scored 4s and 5s on the AP exam should be re-taking an intro course in that subject in college. </p>
<p>reflectivemom: Please compute the exact number of hours in an AP-class and in a college class in the same subject and with the same textbook and then come back and tell me which pace is quicker. I don't care how much time is wasted in an AP-class. sustained lecturing for one hour without interruption for discipline problems, fire drills, etc... means that the pace of instruction and the pace at which students are expected to absorb the materials is quicker.
I did the exercise. Those who hold different views should do the same.</p>
<p>Yes, indeed. Which is why AP courses are not so highly valued by college profs.
The prof who taught intro-bio to my S AP-class, did not think highly of AP-biology. He claimed that he'd seen students who'd aced AP-Bio but had little conceptual understanding. But he was using exactly the same textbook!</p>
<p>marite, you've made some really good points here about ways in which AP courses may not match the college equivalent. What would you like to see done differently?</p>
<p>Then again, I don't see how college profs can make blanket statements like that. I can contrast the AP content & style of the same-titled course in diff. high schools, & substantiate the signficant differences between them in learned & retained content. If the college prof is saying categorically that even the best-taught AP bio courses are not identical to the intro courses at an Elite U, well duh! I wouldn't expect so. In some cases it may be better preparation for <em>college</em> (if that's what one seeks in an AP course; not everyone seeks such in an AP course) to take a community college course at a particularly strong comm. college.</p>
<p>I don't have any solution or prescriptions. My Ss took APs because they were the most challenging classes on offer. So there was no real alternative for them. S2, who took AP-Language at the same time as senior English (non-AP elective) found the latter more interestingl the discussions were not rushed by the need to cover the materials in time for the exam and so could go into greater depth. But he did have an excellent teacher (published author).</p>
<p>My chief point is not that AP classes are universally inferior to college classes; some are and some aren't. But they are not equivalent to college classes in the pace at which students are expected to learn. To a lot of students, it makes a huge difference. And it is often the reason adduced for taking AP classes: to be able to absorb the materials at greater leisure.</p>
<p>Epiphany: the study included a range of colleges. They were not HYPSM.</p>
<p>This comment pertains more to AP humanities classes than to sciences or math: The AP classes aren't equivalent to college classes, because no decent college class would pretend to be a comprehensive survey of US or (even worse) European or (!!!) World History in a semester. Fundamentally, it's a silly, intellectually dishonest thing to do, and I don't believe it's possible really to plumb the historian's analytical and theoretical tool kit while covering the sheer volume of names, dates, and events that the AP exam requires.</p>
<p>That's not at all to say that AP courses are useless. As with marite's son, my kids took them because (a) that's where the good students were, (b) that's where the good teachers were, mostly, and (c) that's what would get colleges (and their own overtaxed guidance counselors) to see them as kids who were interested in challenging themselves. All perfectly valid reasons, and the AP courses met expectations in all those respects.</p>
<p>I find it interesting that the AP science classes my D took really turned her off from science. There was a lot covered quickly & in a very boring manner. I realize this isn't everyone's AP experience, but it was hers. The teachers just wanted to teach as much as possible, so the kids could do well on the test. She liked the more in-depth, less memorize-it-spit-it-back-out format of her previous honors science classes. She seems to think that science "sucks" now. Hopefully, she believes me when I tell her that her college science courses will be much better than her AP's were. She chose a school with small classes where discussion is encouraged. I know that she will eventually find out that I am right (of course, she would never admit that). I am just sorry that the format of the classes was such a total turn-off for her. Of course, that might have been a good thing ... it helped her to understand that she definitely should not be in a school with large lecture classes!</p>
<p>^^ which is way I favor the additional option of an advanced non-AP course in each of the disciplines taught in high school (or as many as possible, consistent with interest & available staffing). Those "other" advanced courses tend to be more in-depth seminar style (actually more, imo, like college course "sections" or precepts than many AP courses are). Certainly not dissing the AP program per se. I just think implementation of it can be improved, and certainly alternatives should be made available.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The AP classes aren't equivalent to college classes, because no decent college class would pretend to be a comprehensive survey of US or (even worse) European or (!!!) World History in a semester.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As a sophomore at the University of Maryland at College Park, my son took "History of the United States Since 1865" to fulfill a general education requirement. The course was remarkably similar to the second half of AP U.S. History, which his sister had taken in high school the year before.</p>
<p>Survey courses do exist in college history departments. Of course, the kids with a serious interest in history get beyond them quickly and focus on courses that cover narrower topics in greater depth. But for students with only a passing interest in history (such as my son the computer science major) or those who just need to fulfill a requirement, the "mile-wide, inch-deep" courses are there.</p>
<p>You know if I took Harvard's biology course as a freshman and then took it again as a sophomore I don't think I'd do much better the second time around either. :)</p>
<p>Like many students my son looks at his 8 semesters of college and the hundreds of courses that he is interested in and sighs. He cannot possibly find room for all the courses he wants to take in four short years. Thank goodness for AP credit because he went into college with all his general education requirements met. At least he isn't stuck having to take political science, literature, foreign language, history etc. "again" when he doesn't really have any interest in these subjects. High School was a well rounded education for him. His passion and excitement for learning could not take
one more minute of these general courses. He has had it with taking classes to satisfy others. Bring on the courses he is passionate about and let him immerse himself in them. He has earned it.</p>
<p>A 5 on an AP test should be enough to bypass any college course. Have you looked at what is expected on a European history AP exam including the dbq's?</p>
<p>I hate to repeat myself in this thread, but all the AP tests are validated by giving them to college students in comparable, graded courses. That's what sets the scoring standard for each AP test: an item content score like the average college student who gets an A is an AP score of 5, an item content score like the average college student who gets a b is an AP score of 4, and so on. Any of you who have the Parent and Student Bulletin about the AP tests </p>
<p>can verify this by looking at page 13. "The AP Program periodically conducts college grade comparability studies in all AP subjects. These studies compare the performance of AP students with that of college students in comparable college courses. In general, the AP composite score cut points (the multiple-choice and free-response sections combined) are set so that the lowest composite score for an AP grade of 5 is equivalent to the average score for college students earning grades of A. The lowest composite scores for AP grades of 4, 3, and 2 are equivalent to the average scores for students with college grades of B, C, and D, respectively." </p>
<p>So there are college courses out there like AP courses. Maybe not in the Ivy League, but at colleges all around the country. Each college can set its own standards for what IT thinks AP scores are equivalent to in its own college, and each college can advise students about retaking the "same" course or not according to its experience with previous students, but AP tests really, truly are at college level--it's just that not all colleges are at one level.</p>
<p>Note that I have not made comments about the contents of AP courses. I've limited myself to discussing the pace of instruction. There are great AP teachers as well as lousy ones; there are great college profs and lousy ones; there are challenging college courses and some that are considered "guts." A visiting instructor at a college was told not to assign more than 25 pages of reading per week. I should think that most AP history courses assign more reading than that.</p>