<p>I subscribe to several of the electronic discussion groups (email lists) for AP teachers, and there has been much discussion on the physics list about an extensive proposed reform of the physics B syllabus, to be followed by a reform (probably not as thoroughgoing) of physics C. </p>
<p>On my part, I am treating this year's physics B course as a preparation for a university honors physics course two years from now for my oldest son, though dual enrollment.</p>
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Thank goodness for AP credit because he went into college with all his general education requirements met. At least he isn't stuck having to take political science, literature, foreign language, history etc. "again" when he doesn't really have any interest in these subjects.
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<p>My daughter will be attending a college that does not allow students to apply their AP credit to general education requirements, but this does not mean that she will have to take anything over. Instead, she can fulfill those requirements by taking more advanced courses in subject where the AP credit is accepted as an alternative to the standard introductory course (e.g., she can go right into linear algebra or multivariable calculus because AP BC Calculus is considered equivalent to the college's Calculus 1 and Calculus 2 courses, and the higher-level math course will count toward the math distribution requirement). Or she can take courses on other aspects of a subject (e.g., because she has credit for AP U.S. History, she would not take introductory U.S. History again, but she might satisfy a distribution requirement with an introductory Asian history course). Or she can satisfy a general education requirement with a course in a subject she did not have a chance to study in high school (e.g., astronomy, geology, sociology, anthropology -- none of which is offered in AP form).</p>
<p>It is not necessary to attend a college where AP credits are accepted for general education requirements in order to have AP credits provide the student with welcome schedule flexibility.</p>
<p>Physics B is not too different from what honors physics used to be in our school. So they just scrapped honors physics. I was surprised at how little Physics C covered, though I'd say Physics B + Physics C probably more or less equaled the Physics 1 course I took in college.</p>
<p>^^
mathmom's point is kind of the point I was trying to make earlier. There really tends not to be an equivalency per se (AP = ), but more that AP approximates, introduces, orients a h.s. student toward a greater volume of expectations. I agree with marite that the volume is not equivalent. You are expected in college to read in both greater depth and greater breadth. And of course there's a practical aspect to that: you do have the time, relative to high school, where your time is much less your own to manage.</p>
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...college students in this study who had taken AP science courses, scored a 5 on the exam, and then took an introductory college course in the same discipline averaged a college grade of only 90, even after the added study at the college level.
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Beats me why students who'd already taken an AP course in a particular subject and scored 4s and 5s on the AP exam should be re-taking an intro course in that subject in college.
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<p>Because, having repeated the course (to some degree, anyway) they only score a 90?</p>
<p>I'm really confused about these AP courses. It seems that they really only serve one purpose: to get general ed. credits done during high school. On the other hand, if the subject is one you plan to major in, it seems that you'd better repeat it in college. But in that case what was the point of doing the AP class in high school? Wouldn't it be better to study the subject more depth in an honors class?</p>
<p>kelsmom, did your daughter have labs with those AP science classes?</p>
<p>^^</p>
<p>Well, my question was rhetorical. Students who scored high in an AP class then re-take the exact same curriculum (that does not apply to humanities classes) either want an easy time in college or are not confident they actually mastered the materials. In the second case, the AP class did not do what it was supposed to do. A class should do more than cover the materials. It should enable the high scoring students to actually master the materials and not have to repeat it.</p>
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On the other hand, if the subject is one you plan to major in, it seems that you'd better repeat it in college. But in that case what was the point of doing the AP class in high school? Wouldn't it be better to study the subject more depth in an honors class?
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There's a huge difference in the level of difficulty between an honors class and an AP class. I don't think that my S would have tolerated covering in one year what he was able to cover at CTY in three weeks. He has a horror of "slow, repetitive and unchallenging."
If it is a subject a student plans on majoring in in college, there is every reason to do AP in high school. MIT will look askance at a student who declares an interest in physics of biology but has not bothered to take the AP class in these subjects if available. Furthermore, students should not be retaking classes they've already taken in high school. They should move on.
A student who achieved a 5 on the BC-Calc exam should be taking Multivariable Calc in college (or even in high school, if the student took BC-Calc before senior year).</p>
<p>Not kelsmom, but AP-science classes MUST have labs. Our high school once tried to do away with the double periods and were told by the College Board that it would not be acceptable not to have labs. The double periods stayed.</p>
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There's a huge difference in the level of difficulty between an honors class and an AP class.
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Not necessarily the difference you'd think. Often the honors level is tougher.</p>
<p>And for what it's worth my point is that there were many courses that I took in college that I wouldn't have done any better the second time around. The fact that AP students who repeat classes don't do spectacularly better than those who are taking them for the first time proves nothing. </p>
<p>And yes some honors courses are tough and some are easy. Can vary from school to school or even from teacher to teacher within a school.</p>
<p>Our high school does AP lab every other day for the science classes - it's usually paired with gym classes since gym is also required every other day by NYS.</p>
<p>Has anyone ever read this forum post?
<a href="http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-115452.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-115452.html</a></p>
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The AP designation in calculus refers to a specific list of "topics" on which one must be prepared to work problems. A year of this AP material coincides with the content of one or two quarters of non honors college calculus at Georgia, but a full year college course, and especially an honors course, not only covers more ground, but treats the material at greater depth. It is ironic that AP calculus courses, which are taken by honors high school students, are comparable at best to non honors college courses, which the best such students would not elect.</p>
<p>As a result many entering AP college students place either into advanced, but less stimulating, non honors courses, or into intermediate honors college mathematics courses for which they are not prepared. Before the AP revolution, students prepared by getting a better grounding in algebra and geometry (and sometimes logic) than is found in high schools today, then took a first year college calculus course which included theory. Introductory college calculus courses for gifted mathematics students which teach theory as well as computation are hard to find today because so many students exempt this course with AP credit. The disappearance of the most outstanding introductory college calculus courses is thus a direct result of the proliferation of significantly inferior AP courses.
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<p>In math at least, it is the better grounding in algebra and geometry that I'd like to see.</p>
<p>Have you seen the article, "The Calculus Trap"? It contains some of the same ideas about depth versus speed. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/AoPS_R_A_Calculus.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/AoPS_R_A_Calculus.php</a> </p>
<p>After edit: The Mathematical Association of America is also studying this issue. </p>
<p>"With all of the pressure to put together a high school transcript that will stand out, more and more students now take BC Calculus before their senior year. This number has grown from 8818 in 2002 to 13,809 in spring, 2006, an increase of 57% in just four years [2]." </p>
<p>Stickershock:</p>
<p>Re your post 67, I agree for humanities. The AP-curriculum is too test-driven in your school, and the students don't get an opportunity to do research papers as in 9th or 10th grade honors English of Social Studies classes. For sciences, though, I do think the level of difficulty is quite different. In this, I go by hearsay, as S1 took honors classes but no APs and S2 took AP classes but skipped the honors classes.</p>
<p>thats true sticker
So- I think some people are familiar with Ds school-
comprehensive magnet school in inner city- high graduation rate for our district- high rate of students going on to college.</p>
<p>However- at maximum, students can only take 6 courses, and in order to fulfill state and district PE and vocational education requirements, they must find other ways to take the most rigourous course load of 4 years of science/history/english/math/foriegn language with some arts as well. ( many at her school participate in the national award winning jazz band/ orchestra programs)</p>
<p>anyway- D is planning on majoring in bio- sciences anyway- but she hasn't taken any AP science courses. Instead, she has taken courses depending on teacher.</p>
<p>Soph year, the first year AP courses were available, she took an Euro history course with a fantastic teacher- who really made himself available to her. ( the whole dept is pretty strong) This year, she initially began taking an honors history course, as she was also taking some other rigourous classes, but while the teacher was good, the class was moving too slow, so she transferred to APUSH.</p>
<p>Senior year, I noticed with horror, that she is registered for TWO AP classes, LA & American Government ( which is one semester). As she will be volunteering quite a bit, playing on sports teams and taking algebra based physics, I expressed my concern it was too much. However- she pointed out to me, that even the teacher said that the AP History course was easier than honors. Not sure what to make of that-.</p>
<p>She also said that currently in her junior LA class, they are doing AP work, but it just wont be AP on transcript.
( I know some kids can take the AP test anyway, but as D has great difficulty in testing situations in unfamilar buildings, I don't think that is an avenue for her)</p>
<p>A lot depends on teacher- Ive told her, that as much as she can ( which has been difficult in her school history- I apparently don't know how to work the system as much as some), it is more important to have a great teacher- than a particular course ( assuming that all the considered courses are necessary)</p>
<p>It may look odd that she is planning to major in the sciences, without any AP courses, I may suggest AP bio test, even though she hasn't taken bio for a while- but the science teachers she has had, have really gotten her engaged in the class, and the few AP science teachers they have, don't have quite the same rapport.</p>
<p>I was so worried about chem for instance, that she is taking this year, because I knew it contains a lot of math, and this is the first year she has been at grade level in math- since she entered public school. But she loves the class, the teacher while he seemed excessively OCD at first, has gotten her to like chem so much, she is talking about majoring in biochem!</p>
<p>( my older daughter also says that in the sciences OCD is a good thing- she has gotten much more so)</p>
<p>I don't think AP courses are going away, but in some schools they are the only courses that are halfway rigorous.</p>
<p>Some students have been taking CC courses instead- it frees up more time, and some schools allow them to use CC courses for credit for advanced standing. But it takes them out of the building, transportation is difficult, and the teaching at CCs isn't anymore even than in the high schools.</p>
<p>But especially for students who are planning on attending a state school anyway, it can be a pretty sweet deal to graduate high school, with two years of credits from the CC and graduate from UW in two years.</p>
<p>Even in the sciences AP is not necessarily the toughest level course. For example, at D's school, High Honors Organic Chem is known to be every bit as challenging as AP Chem, A&P, or Physics.</p>
<p>Stickershock:</p>
<p>Does this mean that your D's school has CP chem, honors chem, high honors chem and AP-chem? Or is High Honors chem basically the same as AP-chem, in which case it's a distinction without a difference? What a course is called is not as important as its contents and the pace and depth at which it is taught, after all.</p>
<p>I would think Organic chem- just because of the course material- would require that students already had a pretty high level of math and chem/bio.
Im very impressed that your school has that- in fact I am quite jealous.</p>
<p>My older daughters school didn't have any AP courses- and she didnt' take OChem until junior year in college- where it flattened her-
However- I think it is fine for students not to take Organic till college, just as I think that you can be a great student in high school, and not have taken Calculus :eek:!</p>
<p>Marite, All the girls must take a year each of bio, chem, and physics in order to graduate. These are offered at CP, Honors, High Honors, and AP levels. But all three MUST be taken at CP, H, or HH level before an AP course can be taken in that subject. The school believes firmly in having a solid science foundation before tackling APs. In order to get into an AP, there are either placement tests or a strict grade requirement in the prerequisite. Some girls double up on sciences in jr & sr year. But nobody is allowed to take more than one AP science at once, and none before jr year. And every girl MUST sit for the AP exam. You sign a contract agreeing to do so. The passing rates, as well as number of girls scoring 5s, are impressive.</p>
<p>The other offerings are mostly APs. Organic is not; it's a HH. I know there are one or two college courses taught at the h.s. in conjunction with a local college. Microbiology perhaps? At any rate, the girls are always challenged, because there is a wide range of content covered and speed of instruction. D is in HH Chem right now. It's quite intense & demanding. I had a year of chem in college, and she has far surpassed what we had to cover. H says the same, and his chem course was at an engineering school.</p>
<p>The school only offers about a dozen APs and the top students will typically graduate with four or five. The school is not changing their philosophy in order to jump on the AP bandwagon, but they do realize how desirable these courses are to many girls. Mine, for example, has no desire to study math. She'll take AP Calc as a senior simply to "get it over with" and hope that will meet the math core requirement at whatever college she attends. Other girls who have med school dreams or intend to study some tecky type major will be sitting next to her, but may not be allowed to use the AP credit.</p>
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<p>No Physics B at My S's high school--just junior physics at regular, honors, and "gifted/talented" levels. Then Physics C senior year (2 periods per day) has both mechanics and E&M. I believe it covered everything I had in a year of Freshman Physics (30 years ago at Hopkins) and pretty much at the same level. I think my S has a better understanding of it now than I did after my freshman year. He had a great teacher, and he really loved the subject.</p>
<p>He will be eligible for two semesters of Physics credit at Case next year (assuming AP test went OK); however, he is considering taking a 2-semester "Physics and Frontiers" sequence offered by invitation to those who get a 4 or 5 on the Physics C sections. These classes cover additional topics "as time permits." I don't know if he'll take these or not--he is very comfortable with the material he covered this year. He plans to ask how many additional topics time, in fact, permits. </p>
<p>I think this option is a good one for colleges who have a lot of freshmen arriving with AP credit--provide expanded courses, with a faster pace, more depth, and more subject matter to build on the AP course and fill in any holes that might otherwise trip the student up later. I knew kids in college who placed out of Calculus who could have used a strong refresher course.</p>
<p>Marite wrote, "reflectivemom: Please compute the exact number of hours in an AP-class and in a college class in the same subject and with the same textbook and then come back and tell me which pace is quicker. I don't care how much time is wasted in an AP-class. sustained lecturing for one hour without interruption for discipline problems, fire drills, etc... means that the pace of instruction and the pace at which students are expected to absorb the materials is quicker.
I did the exercise. Those who hold different views should do the same."</p>
<p>I also did the exercise - and stand by my statement. It might be nice if you realized that your and your son's experiences are not "universal". As hard as this may be for you to understand, some high school AP classes actually do cover more and at a faster pace than the same course offered at college - even Harvard!</p>
<p>I am not arguing that this is always the case, or even that it is the case in the majority of situations, but I am stating that no one can make a blanket statement about AP courses and have it factually correct.</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification, Stickershock. Our school has CP, Honors, APs. There are also special topics such as psychobiology or marine biology whose level of difficulty varies according to the teacher but are generally held not to be as demanding as AP classes.
The school also has only about 12 APs, and many of those are language APs, so students are unlikely to take more than one such AP. Students who want more challenging classes go to the Harvard Extension School. I read a couple of months ago that the school has made a deal with Harvard to permit its students to take regular Harvard college classes during the daytime. This should allow advanced students not to have to take more courses than their classmates.</p>
<p>reflectivemom, would you post the results of your computation? I agree that the school year in MA may differ from the school year in other states.</p>