<p>Hi! mathmom! Yup. N.Y.</p>
<p>Marite and JHS - Let's take a closer look at U of Chicago and Physics. They give 3 quarters of credit in Physics ( 12100, 12200, 12300) for a 5 in Physics C - Mechanics and Electromagnetism. If you look at their website - each of these courses include 3 hours of classwork, a one hour discussion, and a four hour lab. At eight hours/week, 10 weeks per quarter, that works out to 80 hours per quarter or 240 hours for the full year of credit granted.</p>
<p>Hmmm. Seems like the basic AP Physics C - Mechanics and Electromagnetism in highschool is the one with the faster pace! And, this doesn't even address the course with optics and sound included!</p>
<p>And, BTW, a similar schedule can be found for Chemistry with a 5 on AP Chem receiving credit for the three course sequence in Chemistry I, II, III at Chicago.</p>
<p>For Physics B, the minimum contact "hours" (really chunks of 45 minutes) would be 104. In college, the hour is between 50 and 55 minutes.</p>
<p>There are fewer Physics C classes than Physics B, perhaps. And lots of students only sit for the Mechanics part of the exam. I wonder if the teachers involved spent a lot more time on that than on E&M. If the class was double period as it is in our school, it could come to 200+ hours. But 300 hours is hard to believe!</p>
<p>Our high school "hour" is also 50 minutes. Our high school does not offer Physics B. Physics C is offered at three speeds all only take one one period per day. Some students take Physics C Mechanics only all year - one period. Some takes Physics C - mechanics and electromagnetism - still in one period. And, another groups takes Superphysics C - Mechanics, Electromagnetism and Modern Physics. All still taught in one period per day. The kids choose the speed and path that "fits".</p>
<p>Thanks for the reference to the Chicago Physics sequence. It is not at all like Physics C! The three course sequence for which a high score on both parts of Physics C (Mechanics, Electricity & Magnetism) cover:
"fundamentals of physics: mechanics, fluids, electricity and magnetism, wave motion, optics, and an introduction to modern physics." The same topics are covered at a more advanced level in the sequence 13100-13200-13300. No wonder they need more time to cover all the topics!</p>
<p>I'm surprised at your school not having double periods for science APs. As I mentioned in an earlier post, our school tried to do away with double periods several years ago and was told that the AP-Science courses would no longer be recognized as such if it did. So they've remained double periods.</p>
<p>DS will be taking Mathematical Physics next year and both AP Physics C exams at the end of the year. Pre-requisite is Honors Physics specific to his program and MV/DiffEq, along with teacher recommendation. Should be a wild ride. They use Feynman's lectures as one of the texts, along with some stuff from MIT's OCW.</p>
<p>Course is 1.5 hours per day, five days a week, including lab time for problem sets and simulations. Last time the school offered it, four of the five kids who took it got into Caltech. </p>
<p>School also offers regular Physics, Honors, AP Physics B, AP Physics C.</p>
<p>^^ That course sounds challenging! If it had been offered at our school, S would have loved taking it.</p>
<p>Marite wrote: "As I mentioned in an earlier post, our school tried to do away with double periods several years ago and was told that the AP-Science courses would no longer be recognized as such if it did. So they've remained double periods."</p>
<p>Recognized by whom? Our single period courses have all been "certified" by AP collegeboard - based on the syllabi submitted. Only one school in our area uses double periods - it is a rather "low performing" school and argues that its student body could simply not perform on the more traditional schedule.</p>
<p>Even my D's high honors chem has double periods. In an eight day cycle, she has 4 one hour lectures and 2 two hour labs. This class prepares the girls for the SAT II. I imagine labs would be quite tough to set up, complete, and clean up in an hour or 45 minute period.</p>
<p>Marite the schedule I posted was that listed on the U of Chicago website for the 12100, 12200, 12300 sequence that is considered by Chicago to be the equivalent of that covered by Physics C - Mechanics and EM. So, when discussing "pace", it would certainly seem to reflect that U of Chicago spends much more time on the curriculum than our high school.</p>
<p>Reflectivemom:</p>
<p>I went to the Chicago catalog to confirm my suspicion. Chicago awards no credit at all for Physics AB. With a 4/5 on both segments of Physics C, a student can get credit for three quarters of . . . a course that is useless for Physics or Chemistry majors (although it can be used to meet the Physics requirement for Biology or Math majors), and that does not meet Core science requirements, either. I suspect it will satisfy pre-med requirements, too. You don't get any credit for the lab portion of the course, so really the AP is seen as the equivalent of 4 hours/week, not 8. It's not all that useful for anyone but a Biology or Math major with no actual interest in Physics, or someone who wants to graduate in three years and is willing never to take any electives. Really, what you get for a 5 on the Physics C AP is a right to take the qualification exam for the highest level introductory Physics course without previously testing out of the lowest level introductory course. You also get the right to take Physics as a first-year student -- the course you place out of is closed to first-years.</p>
<p>But that's especially generous by Chicago standards. A 5 on the Biology AP will only get you only two quarters of introductory-course credit, although there at least it's a course that's an actual major requirement.</p>
<p>But that just confirms what I've been trying to communicate all along - no one can judge another's school's AP program or coursework. Many colleges have awarded our kids lab credit after reviewing their lab reports - despite "official" claims to the contrary. Many colleges offer placement tests and some of these "AP" courses prepare a student to exempt many more courses than the AP title would confer. </p>
<p>I've said all along, no one can make a blanket statement about AP courses, their workload, their worthiness, etc.</p>
<p>And, quite honestly, no one can judge the college coursework either. I know many colleges considered "less elite" than Chicago that award much fewer credits for the same AP courses. </p>
<p>I've never recommended that my son approach AP with the hope of shortening his college career. That said, he certainly will not choose to repeat most of his AP courses in college - especially in the fields of math/science/history. English - that's a totally different matter. The AP English offerings at our school are a far cry from a college level course. However, I would never presume to judge another school's English offerings to be unworthy or unequal to a college class unless I had personally evaluated the program.</p>
<p>reflectivemom:</p>
<p>I was told by the teachers at our school. Our school is diverse but the kids in AP classes are not low-performing. They get admitted to HYPM regularly. Interesting.
The issue of Ap Physics C vs. college physics is an interesting one. As JHS suggests, Bio is easier to compare. A 5 in AP Physics-C will give a Harvard student one credit out of 4 toward Advanced Standing. It will also allow the student to place into a slightly more advanced first year physics course. </p>
<p>As far as I can tell, the Ap-Bio and the Intro Bio courses are the same, and as I said, used the same textbook. At Chicago, the same material is covered in 2 quarters of 20 weeks in total. At Harvard, at the more leisurely pace of 26 weeks.</p>
<p>Son was the only kid in his hs to take Physics C e/m exam. Amoung ALL (I mean ALL) test takers for that yr. he was at the very top score wise( his 5 being heads above other 5's). He still had to take EM in college and learned things he did not know.</p>
<p>reflectivemom:</p>
<p>It seems we keep on talking past each other. I have not been talking about the quality of courses whether in high schools--which vary greatly--or in colleges--which also vary greatly. I have tried as much as possible to compare like with like and discuss only the pace at which the same content is dispensed/absorbed. For this reason, AP-Physics C does not seem to be a good course to compare with a first year college physics course as it only seems to allow students to place in a slightly more advanced level of the first year course, not replace it.<br>
The contents of the AP-Bio and of the college Bio courses are more similar. At least, they were similar at Harvard when S took intro-Bio four years ago. The first-year sequence has now been replaced by Life Sciences a & b for which there is no AP- equivalent. At Chicago, where such upheaval has not taken place, a high score on AP-Bio gives a student 2 quarters' worth of credit which amounts to much less class and lab time than in an AP-Bio course.
That is all I am trying to say. </p>
<p>Sax: When S took AP-Physics C, there was only one class of 25; and of those 25, the overwhelming majority took only the Mechanics exam. That seems pretty standard. A 5 on only one part of the Physics C exam gets a student only half credit. S also took an E&M class in his first year in college. There was tons that he did not know and was not expected to know.</p>
<p>I guess all I am saying is that doing the very best on both parts of the physics ap exam was still not enough for a physics major. Funny thing is they were willing to give credit for 4's. But for physics majors they knew better.</p>
<p>People seem to forget that the AP courses are designed to mimic beginning courses at **average **colleges not the HYPSM's of the world. Not even the U. of Chicagos. </p>
<p>BTW, I think everyone in my son's Physics C class took both the E and the M.</p>
<p>Mathmom:</p>
<p>You have a point, especially when it comes to humanities courses which vary enormously in quality both in high schools and in colleges. I was trying to look at subjects where the same amount of materials is supposed to be covered. As many CC posters keep saying,intro chem is intro chem whether it's at Stanford or Podunk U. Are they wrong then?</p>
<p>Of course intro chem courses vary from college to college just as all other courses vary. One example I can give is precalculus (yeah, I know, not an AP course, but a course with very standardized content). It happens my son's precalculus course, which he took two years ago, required a textbook that I bought as a used book. The used copy we bought came from a particular college, and I looked up that college's syllabus for the course online. The book was marked with what problems had been assigned to the college student who was the previous owner. He/she only was assigned odd-numbered problems (problems with answers in the back) and low-numbered (easier) problems in each section of the book. My son was assigned even-numbered problems and often skipped the first dozen or so problems to do the harder problems farther along in each section of problems. The "same" course need not be the same course, as actually assigned and graded, and thus the College Board validation studies find students with very different levels of preparation whether in chemistry, calculus, physics, United States history, German, or whatever is tested on an AP test.</p>
<p>tokenadult:</p>
<p>I understand your point. But again, I am not talking about ease or difficulty. I am talking about how many topics are supposed to be covered.
My S did 1/3 of the exercises in the Pre-Calc book, his dad not thinking it necessary to assign more than what S needed to understand the concepts; a classmate did every single one of them, his dad wanting him to be thorough. They both finished the book and covered the same amount of materials by the end of the year (except that S covered that amount in half the year).
Did the previous owner of the book finish all the chapters? Or did the class stop part way?</p>