<p>Well, what will be the "same" between courses will indeed be the fair-game topics, but what is different is whether the topics are really learned thoroughly. Some students pick things up faster than others, and some students learn more outside of assigned schoolwork (through independent reading, or work experience, or dinner table conversation with educated parents) than others.</p>
<p>Yes, indeed. I was not discussing the pace at which individual students learn, but the pace at which the material is taught. Whether it is taught badly or well is another matter.</p>
<p>For example, there were two sections of AP-Chem when my S took it. My S happened to have the better teacher, though both covered exactly the same materials, using the same book. When it came to taking the exam, however, only a few students in the other section felt confident enough to take it. Most of the students in my S's section did. Either way, they covered the same amount of materials over the same period of time, which happened to be longer than the college academic year.</p>
<p>Marite, for some unknown reason, you continue to argue that while quality, content, etc. differ among AP courses, "pace" remains a universal constant with high school providing more time per course than similar college courses. Even if we forget for the moment, that "pace" cannot be separated from content,the examples posted here prove that there is not one standard for "pace".</p>
<p>At my son's school, no AP classes utilize a double period - none of the science classes do so. When there are long labs, the classes meet after/before school and the regular class schedule is shortened/curtailed to offset the extra time spent in lab. At your son's school, all science's are allocated double periods. How can you argue that the "pace" of AP's is equal in the face of such evidence? Similarly, without evaluating the topics covered, the labs performed, the extra research papers assigned, you can't make any real judgment on "pace". </p>
<p>The above just speaks to the high school side of the equation.</p>
<p>As to college, different colleges offer different amounts of credit and different rules for applying such credit. Harvard offers one credit for Biology, one for both Physics C, one year for chemistry. I know of many other schools that only offer one semester of credit for each of these courses. Similarly, Chicago accepts AP scores of 4, other colleges (even those thought to be inferior on the ranking scale) only grants credits for 5's.</p>
<p>I don't believe Physics C is any more "universally" different than Biology. Nor is Chemistry. The top schools and AP programs all use the same texts for all these programs. </p>
<p>My son took his AP Biology with a friend whose sister was taking Biology at Harvard at the same time. Her conclusion - "You guys did much more than we did - guess I should have taken it at high school." So, your son did more in his Harvard class than was done in his high school, my son's friend's sister did less in her class than her high school. Yet your son's highschool had double period classes, my son's school did not. To try and make a universal conclusion on "pace" of AP instruction from anecdotal evidence borders on the ridiculous.</p>
<p>I still believe there is no universal "standard" for AP. Every situation is different. Why is that so difficult to accept?</p>
<p>reflectivemom:</p>
<p>I did not say that my S did more in his Harvard class than his high school class mates did in the AP-Biology class. They read the same book, covered the same amount of materials and took the same Ap exam, and most did well. BUT, my S covered the materials in less time. Even if the AP class had not been a double period, it would STILL have taken more time because of the length of the school year vs. the length of a typical semester in college.
Since JHS described the Chicago Physics course sequence, I won't repeat what he had to say.
The Harvard course catalog has a two course series that seems most like AP-Physics C,. The first semester covers Mechanics, and has 3 hours of lectures and one 90-minute discussion session (total class time over 13 weeks, 58 hours)
The next course covers electricity, magnetism and waves and meets for 3 hours a week (no mention of sections). total class time over 13 weeks, 39 hours.
Total two semesters, 97 hours.</p>
<p>One reason why so many students at top schools get a jolt at midterm is not just because they've been partying since the beginning of school. In fact, many don't and still run into trouble. It's because they're not used to the pace of instruction in college.</p>
<p>You are free not to believe it.</p>
<p>"One reason why so many students at top schools get a jolt at midterm is not just because they've been partying since the beginning of school. In fact, many don't and still run into trouble. It's because they're not used to the pace of instruction in college."</p>
<p>Perhaps that's why my son's school is making a conscious effort to approximate the college curriculum - coverage and pace - in their AP courses.</p>
<p>"As for Physics C, it is clear from the Chicago catalog that it is not the same as what Chicago gives credit for. And Chicago, like Harvard, expects students who have scored well on both parts of the Physics C exam to take first-year Physics."</p>
<p>Hmmm. I happen to know physics majors at both school who have skipped the first year physics sequence after taking AP Physics C. Some tested out of the freshman sequences, some submitted portfolios - grades, test scores, lab reports, etc.</p>
<p>The first year sequence at Harvard is Physics 16 for students who have scored a 5 on the AP-Physics exam, followed either by Physics 15b, then Physics 16c, or often by Physics 153. The year before last, among Physics 16 students was a Physics gold medalist and an IMO gold medalist. Last year, it was pretty much the same situation.</p>
<p>Hmm, just offering a perspective--my school's science APs were only one period as well, and were accredited by the College Board.</p>
<p>Still though, as for the rigor of AP programs...
I do find it somewhat of a joke that you can miss almost a majority of the questions on some of the tests and still come out with a 5.</p>
<p>However, I do suppose APs do their job. Upon entering college, I found that much of the coursework in similar/related classes that I could not AP out of (due to university policy) were actually easier than the AP class.</p>
<p>They covered less, glossed more, and generally didn't promote conceptual understanding as much. This was at UC Berkeley too, which might, considering the name-dropping going on in this thread, be considered just a "state" school, but I find it to be a relatively good university. So I personally would consider the AP system to have done its job, but that could have been individual teaching at my high school specifically.</p>
<p>My main concern and issue with the AP system, however, is the weights.
My junior and senior schedule were literally nothing but APs (except for one exception, which is discussed below), because otherwise my GPA would have dropped precariously (and thus class rank).</p>
<p>Students who wanted some more academic stimulation and took courses at community colleges were punished with lower GPAs. Band students were guaranteed to not be valedictorian or salutatorian.</p>
<p>I actually knocked myself out of being a salutatorian (I would have been, otherwise) because I took a class I thought was interesting during senior year, which wasn't an AP. It didn't matter to me, but I can see how the AP crush can be detrimental to academic curiosity and thus be the opposite of the idealized situation where students take AP courses because they are interested purely in pushing themselves intellectually.</p>
<p>Colleges apparently are aware of this, but seem to be not quite sure how to handle the entire situation. Ranks are still extremely important for most colleges, and if not ranks, then still GPA, and "rigor of course schedule", which more or less means you should be taking an AP unless your school doesn't have it.</p>
<p>These things are determined top-down. It's the colleges that are causing students to see APs as indispensable and "required" for applications.</p>
<p>In the non-AP Freshman-through-Junior Honors and Gifted/Talented bio/chem/physics classes, our school has one double-period per week for lab. (I admire the principal for sticking to this despite the budget pressure to eliminate three science teaching positions by getting rid of this.)</p>
<p>What is funny is that the Freshmen and Sophomores dovetail physcial education on the four days a week that they don't have lab, and only get a half credit of PE for those four days. Since there is a state requirement for one year of PE, they have to take it that way for two years, while the "Standard" science students get their PE requirement out of the way in one year. That used to annoy me, but now I just chuckle at the irony of my stereotypical math/science nerdy little kids having to suffer through two years of gym.</p>
<p>Allorian--The whole business of manipulating courses for Valedictorian seems so unfair. To penalize those who take extra courses or to bestow the Val honor to those who were clever enough to take Health or PE in summer school to avoid the non-honors "A" moves the honor from a recognition of academic achievement to one of gaming the system.</p>
<p>Allorion:</p>
<p>Again, I reiterate that I am not discussing rigor or teaching for conceptual understanding, or what is taught in class and what is expected of a student to learn on his or her own. I am discussing the pace of instruction used to cover the same topics (my S was expected to study on his own a large chunk of materials that appeared on the final exam in one of his courses this past semester). And I happen to think that using Berkeley is as much of name dropping as using Harvard or Chicago. It is a great school by any yardstick. I could have used it to illustrate the quarter system instead of Chicago, I suppose, just as I could have used a school other than Harvard to illustrate the semester system. It was not my intention to name-drop but to provide concrete examples of a quarter system and a semester system.</p>
<p>Dad'o'2:</p>
<p>Your post sent me to check the graduation requirements at my S's old school. The school website has changed greatly over the last couple of years, and I'm still chuckling over what is has to say about PE.
"PE must be taken once a year."
If I remember correctly, PE was taken for one semester and Health another semester, each year--which amounted to considerably more than "once a year." :)</p>
<p>AP exams test the understanding of all of the topics in an area determined by the college board to be important. A students' score reflects their understanding/knowledge of these topics. Colleges are then free to decide what amount of that knowledge (score) is enough to skip their intro course.</p>
<p>So if Harvard is allowing scores of 5 to skip their intro course they have found that that amount of knowledge to get a 5 covers the material they teach in that class. If State College feels that a score of 5 is not sufficient enough for their course they will ask the student to take the intro course.</p>
<p>AP's are great. Colleges know what Ap scores they will accept based on past performance.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"PE must be taken once a year"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Marite-I think my D could even put up with that schedule!</p>
<p>reflectivemom:</p>
<p>I take things back. I did some research and checked the University of Florida calendar and the AP-Bio equivalent.
UF has a calendar that runs to about 15 weeks of classes. The two courses for which a 5 on the AP-Bio test would be given credit are taught 4 days a week, plus one hour of lab. This would amount to 150 hours of class time, considerably less than the double period at our school, but substantially more than a single period at yours, I presume.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Allorion:</p>
<p>Again, I reiterate that I am not discussing rigor or teaching for conceptual understanding, or what is taught in class and what is expected of a student to learn on his or her own. I am discussing the pace of instruction used to cover the same topics (my S was expected to study on his own a large chunk of materials that appeared on the final exam in one of his courses this past semester). And I happen to think that using Berkeley is as much of name dropping as using Harvard or Chicago. It is a great school by any yardstick. I could have used it to illustrate the quarter system instead of Chicago, I suppose, just as I could have used a school other than Harvard to illustrate the semester system. It was not my intention to name-drop but to provide concrete examples of a quarter system and a semester system.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It wasn't my intension to attack your posts, marite, and my apologies for not making it clear in my post.</p>
<p>I was merely pointing it out, since there was a minor discussion of rigor before, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents.</p>
<p>As for name-dropping, I suppose it was my own personal amusement at a time when I brought up Berkeley as a comparison in the middle of HYPSM name-dropping on these forums, and everyone remarked that it was a ridiculous comparison on a totally separate, far lower level <em>chuckle</em>--I suppose parents would be somewhat more balanced.</p>
<p>On a purely informational note though, UC Berkeley is on the semester system. ;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Allorian--The whole business of manipulating courses for Valedictorian seems so unfair. To penalize those who take extra courses or to bestow the Val honor to those who were clever enough to take Health or PE in summer school to avoid the non-honors "A" moves the honor from a recognition of academic achievement to one of gaming the system.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ah, yes, but unfortunately it isn't something even remotely limited to my school. And as for the gaming, usually a "waiver" is what is used--a summer course still drops GPA, because it's only a 4.0 max.</p>
<p>This topic was the primary point I wanted to bring to light in my post.</p>
<p>In the middle of discussing the relevance of AP, some attention should be given to its collateral damage.
As said, college officials seem to know about this. When I discussed the matter with an Associate Dean at UC Berkeley, he nodded and remarked that admissions committees were aware of it.</p>
<p>However, when I then asked what was done, he could only shrug. You can't really penalize people for taking all APs, and those that took a less challenging class are, in reality, likely to be on a lower level academically (in the particular topic, I mean) and you have to judge it by that.
Unfortunately, that opens up to gaming the system, as you observed. That leaves adcoms with the task of using essays and other subjective means to gauge "authenticity"--not exactly the most reliable means to do so.</p>
<p>I don't have a silver bullet either, and as said, just wanted to point this out when considering the benefits and disadvantages of AP.</p>
<p>Allorion:</p>
<p>I did not think anyone in this thread was attacking me. Disagreeing, yes, and correcting some of my preconceived ideas that turned out to be erroneous, but not attacking me personally. So no need to apologize.</p>
<p>I personally consider Berkeley a top-notch school. My S would have applied except for three things: OOS tuition would have come to nearly the same as private school on the East Coast; he wanted a smaller-sized school; and he prefers snow. Thanks for correcting me on the schedule. </p>
<p>Our high school does not weight courses so the maximum grade is 4.0.
One could argue that it does not matter why a student takes APs, as long as s/he ends up taking the most rigorous curriculum available (within reason--I don't think taking 16 APs is healthy or necessary). But adcoms would have to recalculate GPAs and take into account whether students took the AP test or not. We've read about AP classes in which practically no students take the test or most of the students achieve only 1&2s--a reason why the CB is currently trying to do some quality control.</p>
<p>My son did very well on 14 AP tests in high school. He has just finished freshman year of college, and in reflection, he says the biggest benefit of the work he did in AP classes was to prevent the college-level materials from overwhelming him. Instead he was usually at least familiar with the material in many of his classes. While he had to work hard to raise himself from familiarity to mastery, he was grateful to have such a good starting point. Many of his peers did not apparently come as well prepared.</p>
<p>reasonabledad:</p>
<p>Am I right that your S was on a block schedule? Our school offers only about 12 APs, and several of those are language APs.<br>
As well, did your S repeat the materials covered in the AP classes or did he proceed to more advanced classes? It seems that at many universities, there are several versions of freshman science courses. Some of them have APs as pre-requisites some cover the same materials as the AP courses.
Did your son feel that the college classes were taught differently than the AP classes?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>post#128 "Students who wanted some more academic stimulation and took courses at community colleges were punished with lower GPAs. Band students were guaranteed to not be valedictorian or salutatorian."</p>
<p>This is exactly the problem at my kid's school. The school district does not give 5 points for multi-variable calculus, light and quantum mechanics classes taken at the local UC. They force the kids to take other APs like AP Statistics, AP Environmental. I would prefer to cap number of AP classes taken in highschools to 10.</p>
<p>I think that one of the factors that may feed AP mania at some schools is students' desire to have their guidance counselors check the "most rigorous" box when evaluating the student's curriculum on the guidance counselor evaluation forms that are sent to colleges.</p>
<p>In our school system, nobody really seems to know what it takes to get that coveted "most rigorous" box checked (except for IB students, who get it automatically if they are in a full diploma program, regardless of what choices they make within that program). Students sometimes wonder whether they will lose the "most rigorous" designation if they take honors English instead of AP English, or AP AB Calculus instead of AP BC Calculus, or if they choose to be in the chorus rather than taking a sixth academic subject -- and nobody seems to know whether any of these things would matter.</p>
<p>Do you have similar issues in your school system? Do your kids know what they have to do to earn the "most rigorous" designation, or do they just take lots of APs and hope that's the right thing to do?</p>