<p>How is WP a stepping stone?? Anyone who looks at your resume/grad school app will say, "Wow!! He/she must be amazing because he/she was able to gain admission into one of the most highly competitive schools in the country." Additionally, you will make so many connections while there, which will open doors all across the continuum, including corporate America. Leadership can be applied to many fields. Law schools and business schools admit students with a variety of backgrounds/undergrad degrees. Yes, WP can be a HUGE stepping stone, but as many have already stated, that is not the purpose.</p>
<p>Bottom line is that if you went to West Point, regardless if you have absolutely no experience in a field, you know what it takes to lead, face challenges, and succeed. Sure, you might not have spent your five years working towards a law degree or whatever field it may be; instead, you spent that time in combat, leading Soldiers in the most strenuous environment imaginable, something that no civilian field can emulate. You've been trained and practiced leadership for years, you've met the demands of the hardest school (I'm speaking of all SAs here) in the Nation, and you met that standard. Thats why I have friends that couldnt commission due to medical reasons who got jobs in the private sector starting out at over 90 grand a year.
That being said, as everyone said, it's not the purpose. The purpose is to take all the moral, ethical, educational, tactical, technical, physical, and whatever else you are trained in and become a great officer, so someday you can come to Iraq to rot for 15 months (just kidding). My friends in the civilian world have nothing on what I've had. As an officer, you are charged with the most honorable profession known to man; the right to lead Soldiers. Wanting to five and fly is fine, but you need to be focused on USMA and the Army before you ever start thinking about what it can do for you later on in life.</p>
<p>You should consider what I am doing...</p>
<p>First off, let me state that my goal in life is to never become a flag-grade officer. The way I view the military is give me a couple years of "hoaah" stuff and I'll give them a career of filling a role/critical skill they cannot train themselves as long as they compensate me with rank.</p>
<p>I'm currently 21 and in my 1st professional year of Pharmacy at Rutgers University. I'm also an Officer Candidate for the NJ Army National Guard with an expected commissioning date of August 2009. I chose this particular path because I knew I never wanted to serve full-time and I wanted to have a civilian career. But I also wanted to serve as an officer and with the current operational tempo I understand that I will be deployed sooner or later.</p>
<p>West Point is designed to create and develop leaders who are committed to a life-long service to the Army. I've always wanted toys in life and I knew that a life-long career in government would never allow me to afford the things I've always wanted.</p>
<p>In the state of NJ, we have a State Tuition Waiver Act which stipulates that Guard-members can attend any public university for any degree or any semester without being charged tuition. Essentially my 6 years at Rutgers Pharmacy are free and right after I graduate that's a guaranteed $100,000+ per year for working 36 hours a week at a retail pharmacy. I also plan on going for either a PhD Chemistry, MS ChemE, and/or MS IndustrialE (for free) while working at a retail pharmacy after graduation. This would allow me to expand my opportunity, vision, and horizons with literally no opportunity costs. You simply would not have this flexibility if you went to West Point.</p>
<p>I suspect your goals in life are similar to mine. I'd recommend you consider ROTC and service in either the National Guard or the Reserves.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, if you only stay 5 years on Active Duty you'd still only be a Captain. In the NG or Reserves, you'd make Captain in 4 years as long as you can breathe. For my goals...</p>
<p>Cpt. My Name PharmD, PhD would easily trump Cpt. My Name (graduated from West Point).</p>
<p>However, I do plan on switching to the Reserves after my commitment with the NG. They have more medical units and if you are a traditionally commissioned officer with successful command and staff time, you will be at the top of the list for promotions in the Reserves if you also have a health-degree and license. The Army in general is extremely short of medically qualified officers that you don't need any special connections to reach the rank of Lt. Col or Col in 20 years.</p>
<p>Polo, that's not true at all. You think that just because you'll have pharmacy experience that your Captain rank will trump my Captain rank? Not trying to stir things up or be rude, but that's a rather uninformed statement. First of all, West Point, OCS, and active-duty ROTC graduates are making Captain with 36 months, well below their 5 year commitment (5 year commitment for WPers at least). At the end of 5 years, both the National Guard commissionee and the West Point commissionee would both be Captains. So, that argument is basically moot. </p>
<p>West Point is a stepping stone for many reasons.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>It is recognized world-wide as an institution that puts its students through multiple crucibles--not only must Cadets be academically proficient, they must also excel physically and militarily as well. Because of this, other quality institutions such as Harvard, Stanford, and Yale add either an extra half or whole point to a West Point graduate's final GPA (from what I understand, whether it is half or whole has differed from year to year). </p></li>
<li><p>Networking--I'd argue that the programs and clubs that West Point has offer networking opportunities unlike anywhere else. During my time here I've met 2 Supreme Court Justices, multiple Senators and Congressman, Nancy Pelosi, and the Vice President. In addition, I've worked in the Department of Homeland Security, also associating with the State Department and Special Operations Command with regards to a problem I was working on. People give out business cards, and they intend for you to use them. In addition, the Association of Graduates TAKES CARE of its graduates. When you decide to get out of the Army, you will have multiple job opportunities paying a great deal of money.</p></li>
<li><p>World-travel: Yes, at regular colleges you can go abroad, but rarely will ROTC allow you to do so if you are in their program. Since being at West Point I've spent 5 months in Jordan, 1.5 months in Egypt, and traveled to Israel and Thailand. During my time spent abroad, I got to work with foreign militaries, learn a new language, and learn the ins and outs of Embassy life. I am much more culturally rounded. I couldn't have afforded to pay for semester abroad at a regular college, but the Government provided it for me at West Point.</p></li>
<li><p>To address Polo's comment about needing connections to reach LTC--that's not true. If you are a good officer and work hard and get good ratings, you will reach LTC. In fact, there is currently a 97% promotion rate to LTC.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Don't get me wrong Polo--I'm neither bashing the Guard, the Reserves, or Rutgers Pharmacy School. All I'm saying is that West Point offers (what I believe) is an almost unparalleled education opportunity, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. And just a note--I had a Marine Corps ROTC scholarship to Georgetown (full ride), an Army ROTC full ride to Notre Dame, and an acceptance from both the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy. Like I said, I wouldn't trade it for anything.</p>
<p>You need to re-read the entire thread because the point of my post was specifically directed to the OP. I suspect his goal isn't a lifelong service in the military and if he does want to make money in the future while still having military experience he should choose a more flexible route such as the National Guard or the Reserves. I'd like to reiterate, I'm not saying WP is not a good route. I'm saying for the intents and purposes of the OP there are better ways to achieve his end goal. He wants to make a lot of money in the private sector and so do I.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I was wondering, because according to AmericanSoldier's statistics that more cadets would use West Point and be a "5 and fly", where would and what would West Point "5 and fly" graduates do? Do they become lawyers? engineers? doctors? or businessmen?
[/quote]
The OP goes on to imply that he/she is considering using WP as a stepping stone to the above.</p>
<p>
[quote]
At the end of 5 years, both the National Guard commissionee and the West Point commissionee would both be Captains. So, that argument is basically moot.
[/quote]
This is exactly my point. The differences between being commissioned through WP and some other program are only seen at the ranks of LTC and beyond. If the OP isn't planning to stay that long, then it doesn't even matter.
[quote]
You think that just because you'll have pharmacy experience that your Captain rank will trump my Captain rank?
[/quote]
My point was by the time we've both reach CPT you would have had a Bachelor's and a great deal of leadership experience. I would have had a PharmD, PhD, and a decent amount of leadership experience. If you have 2 Doctorate degrees, your civilian opportunities will be limitless. You are considered a expert in 2 different fields that could be combined and make you invaluable to certain industries. In fact, by the time I've graduated college at age 24 I will have a PharmD and license and that's good for at least $110,000 per year for working 36 hours a week, guaranteed. At the same time, I'd be going back to school for a Master's Engineering or a PhD Chem/Biochem while making 6 figures a year. Quantitively, you just cannot beat that combination. If the OP went to WP, he wouldn't start preparing for his civilian career until the age of 27. If he chose to go the same way I did, he would have been well on his way already. I believe this is the life that the OP is looking for.
[quote]
- It is recognized world-wide as an institution that puts its students through multiple crucibles--not only must Cadets be academically proficient, they must also excel physically and militarily as well. Because of this, other quality institutions such as Harvard, Stanford, and Yale add either an extra half or whole point to a West Point graduate's final GPA (from what I understand, whether it is half or whole has differed from year to year).
[/quote]
I agree. The rigor of WP is far superior to any other OCS program, including the one that I am in. There is no question about that. But having doctorate level degrees will ensure that you are on a fast track in the corporate world while serving in the NG/Reserves as an officer gives you the leadership experience that the corporate world will not give you at such a young age. The OP should consider this in his decision-making process.<br>
[quote]
- Networking--I'd argue that the programs and clubs that West Point has offer networking opportunities unlike anywhere else. During my time here I've met 2 Supreme Court Justices, multiple Senators and Congressman, Nancy Pelosi, and the Vice President. In addition, I've worked in the Department of Homeland Security, also associating with the State Department and Special Operations Command with regards to a problem I was working on. People give out business cards, and they intend for you to use them. In addition, the Association of Graduates TAKES CARE of its graduates. When you decide to get out of the Army, you will have multiple job opportunities paying a great deal of money.
[/quote]
Networking is important but there are different levels of networking. The networking you are speaking about is the one where you go out and try to meet as many people as you can so in the future they give you an opportunity. The networking that I'm trying to achieve is the one where people try to actively seek me because I bring technical expertise that cannot be found easily or replaced and is in incredible demand. One is where you follow them. The other is where they chase after you.
[quote]
- To address Polo's comment about needing connections to reach LTC--that's not true. If you are a good officer and work hard and get good ratings, you will reach LTC. In fact, there is currently a 97% promotion rate to LTC.
[/quote]
I was referring to the NG. In the state of NJ, it is likely that you'll need connections to reach LTC in the NG as we only have a few battalions. I'm sure it's not a problem on Active Duty. But that is exactly the problem, you will never make enough money to afford the toys and standards of living that the very wealthy have in the US. I'm looking to do the least amount of work to attain the highest rank possible. Currently, that seems very possible if you are a healthcare professional as we lack those in numbers more than any other branch specialty. I've seen very young doctors who've made LTC or COL at a very young age. Ages 22-40 are considered your golden years for climbing the corporate ladder. They determine whether you'll rise fast enough to one day make it to the "C" level. Unfortunately when you choose to go Active Duty and want to spend 20 years doing so, the age range where you rise the fastest are long gone because most companies prefer younger fast-movers and the time when you had minimal outside obligations other than your career are gone as well.</p>
<p>Polo,</p>
<p>You are very mistaken in your thinking about experience/degrees and about networking. </p>
<p>What marines4me is saying about rank/position and experience is that people take notice of a degree from West Point, even if it is just a bachelor's degree, especially when combined with 5+ years of leadership experience in the military. Yes, your two doctorates may make you more qualified in a certain field, but a person coming from West Point already has the advantage of people assuming he is probably going to be disciplined, able to manage himself as well as others, able to take the lead and get work done quickly and efficiently, and have strong personal skills, to name a few. Yes, both of your Captain's ranks will be equal on the grounds that they are the same rank, but the real question is, what is your potential, and what will it provide employers when combined with your experience and skills? Marine's argument is that West Point gives an advantage in the first two areas especially, while providing an excellent opportunity in the third. Your advantage may be in the third area, but how strong you are in the other two plays a major role in real-world hiring and promotion decisions, both in and out of the Army.</p>
<p>And you say that the differences in education and experience are only seen in LTC and beyond? In certain branches yes, extremely specialized training and schooling are vital to reaching these ranks, such as in the medical corps. However, by that time, if you are ambitious enough, it doesn't matter whether you are from West Point or ROTC, the Army will send you to school to earn the requisite degrees and training.</p>
<p>As far as networking is concerned, you are saying that people will want to network with you because of your skills or potential. Marines4me is talking about our situation being so that both in our daily lives and through opportunities for advanced schooling/training we meet and interact with people such as Congressmen; high-ranking officers and enlisted men and women; heads of state; dignitaries both foreign and domestic; gurus and giants in the political, commercial, and industrial worlds; and celebrities/pop culture personalities. They are not usually people that we are looking to meet so that "in the future they give [us] an opportunity." It is simply where we are, the life we are in, that crosses our paths with these people. The easiest example is the disproportionate number of officers that we have here, many of whom are field-grade. Every cadet every day interacts with these men and women and learns to do so comfortably and confidently.</p>
<p>I daresay that, more than likely, if you were to be sitting in a restaurant as a freshly commissioned 2LT and a three-star were to approach you, you would not be very confident in interacting with him. West Point gives to cadets through this day-to-day contact with "important" people, a strong confidence in themselves and their social abilities no matter who they come into contact with. This is something that people pick up on very quickly and part of their overall judgment of you.</p>
<p>I, like marines4me, am not in any way degrading other paths to commissioning; I am merely pointing out the flaws in your statements. You are right, however, in saying that the OP should consider the different ways to commission and the advantages they offer in light of the goals he has set for himself.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What marines4me is saying about rank/position and experience is that people take notice of a degree from West Point, even if it is just a bachelor's degree, especially when combined with 5+ years of leadership experience in the military. Yes, your two doctorates may make you more qualified in a certain field, but a person coming from West Point already has the advantage of people assuming he is probably going to be disciplined, able to manage himself as well as others, able to take the lead and get work done quickly and efficiently, and have strong personal skills, to name a few. Yes, both of your Captain's ranks will be equal on the grounds that they are the same rank, but the real question is, what is your potential, and what will it provide employers when combined with your experience and skills? Marine's argument is that West Point gives an advantage in the first two areas especially, while providing an excellent opportunity in the third. Your advantage may be in the third area, but how strong you are in the other two plays a major role in real-world hiring and promotion decisions, both in and out of the Army.
[/quote]
- The point is that if he went to WP, he would be 5 years behind the corporate curve from the get go. Meanwhile, the other guy would have still had military experience as an officer.
- Two doctorates in high demand fields make you recession proof. If you can't find a high paying career with that technical knowledge, it's even worse for everyone else. In these days, you can see how being recession proof is important.
- While WP may give you an advantage, on a relative scale it is small compared to someone who is also a military officer versus someone who has never been in the military for a day.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As far as networking is concerned, you are saying that people will want to network with you because of your skills or potential. Marines4me is talking about our situation being so that both in our daily lives and through opportunities for advanced schooling/training we meet and interact with people such as Congressmen; high-ranking officers and enlisted men and women; heads of state; dignitaries both foreign and domestic; gurus and giants in the political, commercial, and industrial worlds; and celebrities/pop culture personalities. They are not usually people that we are looking to meet so that "in the future they give [us] an opportunity." It is simply where we are, the life we are in, that crosses our paths with these people. The easiest example is the disproportionate number of officers that we have here, many of whom are field-grade. Every cadet every day interacts with these men and women and learns to do so comfortably and confidently.
[/quote]
And a similar opportunity is given while serving in the NG and Reserves. Look, the point is the opportunity cost of attending WP versus getting a head start on your corporate career. Sure, WP teaches greater leadership and everything. But I deal with things that can be quantified. I like the mathematical relationships of get X and you'll get Y. Get X degree, you'll make Y money. Get Z degree you'll make Y + W money, etc.
Your networking career really takes off once you go to a top-10 MBA school. Right now I'm focused on trying to set myself up so that I can get into a top-10 MBA school such as Harvard, Stanford, MIT, etc. Having great technical expertise gives you the opportunity to excel in industry and having the experience as an officer gives you a baseline of leadership qualities that you'll need to manage yourself, other people, and your own strengths and weaknesses.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I daresay that, more than likely, if you were to be sitting in a restaurant as a freshly commissioned 2LT and a three-star were to approach you, you would not be very confident in interacting with him. West Point gives to cadets through this day-to-day contact with "important" people, a strong confidence in themselves and their social abilities no matter who they come into contact with. This is something that people pick up on very quickly and part of their overall judgment of you.
[/quote]
I can say that I would be very confident if a three-star approaches me for a couple of reasons.
1. You'll promote to CPT as long as you breathe and haven't committed a felony. By the time I'm a senior CPT I would already be looking to get into a top 10 MBA school. After you graduate that, you'll be able to make a very comfortable living that whether you choose to stay in the military really doesn't matter.
2. Yes, you'll make LTC or COL if you work hard and get good ratings. But you'll also make LTC or COL just as quickly if you possess a degree/critical skill that the Army simply can't train from within.</p>
<p>The WP is very good and can lead to great things. But I deal with things are can be measured more easily. I like areas where you can reduce risk/variability and increase benefits/rewards. That is one of the reasons I picked pharmacy initially. It's as recession-proof as most industries go and it has satisfactory compensation for now.</p>
<p>The main point is I feel that the OP's perspective is similar to mine and it'd be in his interest to consider the path that I've taken and to save a spot in West Point for someone who wants to spend their entire life serving in the military.</p>
<p>"To educate, train, and inspire the Corps of Cadets so that each graduate is a commissioned leader of character committed to the values of Duty, Honor, Country and prepared for a career of professional excellence and service to the Nation as an officer in the United States Army."</p>
<p>....prepared for a CAREER of professional excellence and service to the Nation as an officer in the United States Army."</p>
<p>Any other motivation is secondary. Being in the "corporate career" world, I can tell you that "service" is not a watchword among "corporate ladder climbers". They have their places in this world, but WP is not one of them</p>