<p>Dodgersmom, there is a huge difference between hazing and date rape. The two aren’t even comparable. </p>
<p>LasMa, once again, these are due to the institutions, and not the greek organizations themselves. At my school, there truly is no hazing. At the schools hazing is occurring, the institutions clearly don’t know what they are doing.</p>
<p>Sure, it’s easy to find negative statistics, but notice how none of the positives I mentioned were even mentioned by any of you?</p>
<p>There’s no point in arguing with any of you as it seems you’re all set on your opinions. I can only sway you. My statistics I listed still stand. Recently, I helped my girlfriend’s sorority raise over $1,000 for homeless children. My fraternity recently raised hundreds of dollars for the National Cancer Society. You wouldn’t know about any of that though because no one would care. Now, a fraternity person that got caught dealing cocaine or hazing someone into doing something obscene? Now there’s a story.</p>
<p>You can stereotype all you want. The media loves a negative story, and it effects the way you all see things. Not a single news story was made about the thousands of dollars raised by the Greeks at my school this year. However, I saw plenty of stories about drug use in the fraternities and sororities. If you only look at what the news tells you, of course you’re going to have a negative outlook. You’re ignorant because you’re not a part of the system yourselves, or you don’t do real research.</p>
<p>I’m not going to stereotype like the users on here do. It’s like saying… All Democrats are Communists. All Republicans are Fascists. All fraternity men are alcoholics… See where I’m coming from?</p>
<p>So bash it all you want. Keep using the internet (even though there’s plenty of positive material on Greek Life if you actually LOOK for it). Try calling some schools and ask about Greek Life. See if it matches up.</p>
<p>No one said that all fraternity men are alcoholics. But it’s undeniable that the incidence of Greek alcoholism is significantly higher than that of non-Greek collegians. The links I posted are not “media stories” and “stereotypes.” They are facts, uncovered by research.</p>
<p>And that’s great that your girlfriend’s sorority raises money for charity. Do you think Greeks are the only people who do this? Various groups at my D’s college do lots of community service and charity fundraising as well. And her college is 100% Greek-free.</p>
<p>collegealum314, please tell me where I said my college represents the rest of the country. I used it as an example. As for you saying my point didn’t help my cause, please tell me how it didn’t. Saying most presidents have been fraternity men is a very valid point.</p>
<p>Also, Yale and Harvard do have fraternities. Harvard has fraternities and sororities that are not affiliated with the university. (Again, they are independent organizations, and it gives students a chance to run a real-world organization.) As for Yale, have you ever learned of the Skull and Crossbones? If not, you should look it up because they are one of the most famous fraternities that have ever existed</p>
<p>“Of the nation’s 50 largest corporations, 43 are headed by fraternity men.”</p>
<p>“85% of the Fortune 500 executives belong to a fraternity.”</p>
<p>“40 of 47 U.S. Supreme Court Justices since 1910 were fraternity men.”</p>
<p>“76% of all Congressmen and Senators belong to a fraternity.”</p>
<p>“Every U.S. President and Vice President, except two in each office, born since the first social fraternity was founded in 1825 have been members of a fraternity.”</p>
<hr>
<p>As the saying goes, “Well there’s your problem!”</p>
<p>I have personally experienced the positive benefits of fraternity membership and know many men who believe that this experience helped them become better students and members of the community. </p>
<p>The difficult issue is that there is probably a wider range of behavior and group quality across fraternities then there is for many other groups and organizations. Appearances can be deceiving so I would encourage your son to get a range of data points as he evaluates his options.</p>
<p>If the group you are referring to is Beta Theta Pi at KU you might want to ask Student Affairs for more information about the reasons for Beta’s sanctions mentioned on this page: [Student</a> AffairsOffice of the Vice Provost for Student Success | University of Kansas](<a href=“Student Affairs | Student Affairs”>Student Affairs | Student Affairs)</p>
I never said my kids don’t drink or are waiting for marriage. I’ve seen my son’s fraternity and I know some of his friends. I know their GPA. I know they were the only frat on his campus that wasn’t on probation. I don’t think there’s anyone on his campus who would have denied that his was the “good” frat.</p>
<p>Life is not black and white. Saying all frats and sororities are the same is like saying all LACs are the same, or all college students… or all republicans or all democrats or all people from a certain region of the country. They’re not. </p>
<p>BTW, one does not need to join a Greek organization to drink or sleep around. I live in a part of the country that is loaded with colleges, and the stories of kids binge drinking are by no means confined to colleges that have Greek life. Many of the non-Greek colleges are in urban areas and the generally accepted belief is that many of the kids have fake IDs and drink in bars in the city. Notice I didn’t say ALL of the kids, because not all do - but many do.</p>
<p>The problem I see with the Greek organizations at many universities (not all) is the peer pressure atmophere it creates toward bad (and dangerous) behavior, layered on top of all the good things that they offer. My D is loving her sorority experience and, given that she has never been particularly good with making girl-friends, I think that this has been a good opportunity for her to bond with some great girls who will probably be her lifelong friends. And, the few girls whom I have met seem very smart and polished, and likely are very good students. Still, I was shocked that my D would want to spend her time painting a cooler for a guy she doesn’t even know and that she would think it was ok to ask her parents for money to buy alcohol to put inside of it or that it was no big deal to spend the weekend in a hotel room with a man she had just met and who likely would be drunk all weekend. It was like a zombie had taken over my D–it just wan’t like her. Sure, it’s her own fault for being such an idiot, but when hundreds (and I do mean hundreds) of other girls around you are doing something idiotic, it is difficult for a young adult to stay grounded and to refuse to take part. That’s how hazing happens, too, and, from the stories my D’s male friends have told her from many schools around the country, serious hazing is rampant and usually involves excessive drinking (i.e. Solo cups full of vodka until the pledge throws up) or humiliation. (We haven’t seen this type of hazing in the girls’ sorority experiences.) It’s difficult to justify the positive aspects of Greek life, especially for boys, given this atmosphere, and we will definitely attempt to sway our younger son away from it when his time comes.</p>
<p>It disgusts me that young women demean themselves in this way. When I read this kind of thing, I thank doG I went to a women’s college, where people liked guys fine, but were not interested in being handmaidens to males to gain their approval. I have the same reaction when I see young women complain about date rape and the behavior of guys at certain houses at my S’s school, and then KEEP ON GOING TO THOSE HOUSES! What is their problem? Are young women really so brainwashed by the “success” of the Kardashian demimonde types that they think that true personal power resides solely in flaunting your “hot body” and gaining male approval? Is modern feminism dead? Sometimes I despair. </p>
<p>Back in the 70s, I had a boyfriend and many friends at an MIT fraternity. I, and various other females, lived there during some summers. I recall some guys from the organization’s house at USC coming to stay for a few days. In the course of conversation, they described “Derby Day,” where the sorority girls did things to court the favor of the frat boys. I believe that the ostensible reason for this was fundraising for “charity.” The MIT guys listened to all of this in wonderment, and one of them said, “You would NEVER get the girls we know to do that stuff.” “Oh, all brains and no body?” was the reply. I’ll never forget it.</p>
<p>By the way, regarding hazing, except in cases where the person is forcible abducted or restrained, the person CAN SAY NO. I’m pretty sure that the majority of “hazing” is of a type that a self-respecting individual can simply walk away from…just as a self-respecting woman can chose NOT to “pre-game” in her dorm room, go out drunk, drink yet more, and go to some guy’s room with him. Rape and hazing are NEVER justified, but it is true that people should take some responsibility for their own behavior and choices.</p>
<p>“the way, regarding hazing, except in cases where the person is forcible abducted or restrained, the person CAN SAY NO. I’m pretty sure that the majority of “hazing” is of a type that a self-respecting individual can simply walk away from…just as a self-respecting woman can chose NOT to “pre-game” in her dorm room, go out drunk, drink yet more, and go to some guy’s room with him. Rape and hazing are NEVER justified, but it is true that people should take some responsibility for their own behavior and choices”</p>
<p>To this I say, yes, but . . . There are plenty of kids who are weak-willed, brain washable, susceptible to group think. I think you are overestimating the confidence of some of these kids. I think some kids have to be protected from themselves. There are going to be plenty of girls who want to Just Say No but are lacking in self-esteem. These activities may look like a choice, and that’s why the fraternities are able to do them, but they aren’t always.</p>
<p>For me, personally, fraternities/sororities sound like a terrible practice. They create a herd mentality. The kids have less reason to get to know others outside of their group. They create an us/them situation. That’s really terrible. And if hiring practices rely on fraternity membership, that’s terrible, and even more reason to do away with them.</p>
<p>I would sit down with my kid and have a serious talk about all this, if I were the OP.</p>
<p>Consolation asked if modern feminism is dead? I think it’s getting there. As I was arguing with my smart, independent daughter about why she shouldn’t be painting a cooler and filling it full of alcohol for a fraternity boy, she yelled at me, “Stop being such a feminist!” My head is still spinning.</p>
<p>It’s demeaning to young men, too. There was a date rape awareness march here on campus, and men were not permitted to participate and show support for a woman’s right to say no. When the organizers were asked about this, the answer was “Because all men are potential rapists”. We have raised two men who would never, ever, think of attacking a woman any more than they would steal or rob or assault. My oldest has on more than one occasion been the “good guy” who rescues the drunk girl from herself, her friends, or the drunk guy. We have a phrase “No means no” and we used it since they were old enough to talk, in a general sense, specifically to drill it into them for when it would mean something much more specific. When S2’s girlfriend was trying to do something vaguely annoying (a non-sexual something) I heard him say “Hey! No means no”</p>
<p>My sons have observed that many modern young women are advertising their sexual availability, binge drinking, and chasing trophy guys (athletes, musicians, frat boys) in a misguided interpretation of equality. They pass over “good guys” as not exciting enough while simultaneously complaining they can’t find a guy who won’t treat them like a slut. Equality as equal ability to reduce yourself to a sterotype, rather than comfort with who you are and what you bring to the world.</p>
<p>lenny, I feel your pain. This is precisely what I was talking about.</p>
<p>Maybe you should ask her if she wants equal opportunities, equal pay for equal work, reproductive rights, and the right to vote. Tell her that’s what it means to be a feminist. But I would say she’s mad at you because at some deep level she knows she is demeaning herself to be “popular” and she’s ashamed of it. At least, I hope so. :(</p>
<p>It all starts in the aisles of Toys r Us, where the “girl” aisles are florescent pink and lavender and the “boy” aisles are camo. It progresses to department stores, where mothers I know complain that they can’t find any clothes for their elementary school age daughters that don’t look like hooker outfits. It is so depressing.</p>
<p>It upsets my wife tremendously, as we dive through our campus on Friday and Saturday evenings, to see the parade of hoochie mamas walking down the streets to the bars. She can’t understand why they would do that to themselves.</p>
<p>To the OP, in keeping up with this thread, I realize that my original response did not address the question you asked: What are tips for worrying parents? (Sorry not to have addressed your question.)</p>
<p>Here is a tip I can provide, based on the specific U your DS is considering: Frats at this U have an unwritten rule whereby they inform rushees whether they are a Hazing house or a non-Hazing house. I know several families with boys who have rushed at this U recently & this has been discussed with each boy during the rush process, albeit informally. Now, that is not to say the non-Hazing houses don’t participate in considerable mayhem & foolishness. But it is something your DS should consider, if he is intent upon rushing & you allow him to do so. The U has a zero-tolerance for hazing, but the rushees are informed off-the-record during the rush process. I have heard recent hazing stories, directly from parents of affected students, that are extremely disturbing. And, of course, I saw a lot of things in my own day.</p>
<p>Another tip that I’d consider key: Find parents in your DS’s HS community who have DSs in greek life, both at this U & elsewhere. Ask them probing questions. It never ceases to amaze me how parents, when asked, will lament about the hazing their DSs endure - yet they pay the frat bills each month. The U your DS is considering is very greek-oriented, so many parents consider mens frats/womens frats to be an essential part of life there. Only you & your DS can make this decision, but do make a real effort to be informed.</p>
<p>And yes, mayhem & foolishness happen outside of greek life every day, so your DS will not be exempt from temptation & pressure even if he does not pledge. </p>
<p>Good luck with this process and with finding the best option for your DS.</p>
<p>Very interesting viewpoints by all. Never heard about the “coolers”. Rather than flatly say NO [which is what my gut says] we are going to let him gather his own data. He has his first “event” this weekend. An informal gathering at the house and then the spring football game. He’s a pretty sharp kid who makes pretty good decisions. He carefully avoids all of the high school parties which involve drunken debauchery (several each weekend supported and funded by parents) and instead hangs out with some of his debate friends at coffee shops having fun. My guess is that if he’s not a fit for them then they won’t be a fit for him. No harm in exploring the possibility. He already has a locked in place at one of the honors floors in the dorms, so he won’t be homeless. As for falling pray the “hoochie” girls in hooker outfits - I’m not too worried. He always dates smart, feminist leaning girls and can’t stand the vacant Kardashion/Snookie types.</p>