<p>Is Princeton (with all it's fancy eating clubs, etc.) really as economically elitist and snobby as most people say it is??</p>
<p>Many students like myself come from low-income families. Don't know what I could actually say to counter that false and greatly outdated stereotype.</p>
<p>Really? Whew, that's a relief. So they have good, no-loan financial aid available? I'm pretty much middle-class myself, nowhere near capable of paying 40 Gs a year...</p>
<p>Princeton's financial aid is more than just "good": it was groundbreaking when they introduced the current system in 2001. It's completely no-loans and they consistently meet 100% of need. Do not worry about money when it comes to Princeton, pretty much. It's one of the biggest reasons I considered applying to Princeton. Schools are just now following what Princeton started (Harvard, Yale, extremely few others).</p>
<p>Here's more information:
Princeton</a> University | Financial Aid Without Loans</p>
<p>You can find a financial aid calculator on the website.</p>
<p>(For the record, I am considered "lower income" by Princeton.)</p>
<p>They have excellent financial aid. In fact, I got more money from Princeton than from any of my other schools. If you look up the Princeton Review rankings, incidentally, you'll find that Princeton is in the top 10 for "Most Satisfied With Financial Aid." (Their system is also very prompt and not at all bureaucratic).</p>
<p>Many of the Ivy League schools are stereotyped as being the realm of the white and privileged but this is a very old stereotype. Sure, you'll find lots of rich kids (as you would at pretty much any college campus) but they make real efforts at getting racial and socioeconomic diversity. And with such a large applicant pool to choose more, they mostly succeed.</p>
<p>So would you all say that Princeton FA is better than at Harvard, Yale, or the other Ivies? I don't want to apply to all of them (ridiculous app fees lol)</p>
<p>I think Harvard's may or may not be better but in my experience, Yale is less generous and their system is bureaucratic and annoying. I know that Princeton's FA is not just generous but unique in other ways as well (for one thing, they didn't require me to take a job, as Yale did).</p>
<p>This issue has been addressed a number of times. The short answer is that the elitist stereotype is outdated, and the eating clubs, half of which allow anyone to join, are much less exclusive than their counterparts at Harvard and Yale. Below are some of the most insightful past posts on the subject:</p>
<p>
<p>Many of the negative stereotypes of Princeton are aimed at the eating clubs which are characterized as exclusive, secretive and highly selective. This would provide plenty of laughs for current undergraduates. While I didn’t belong to an eating club, I spent plenty of time in most of them. When most juniors and seniors are members of these clubs and when more than half of them can be joined simply by signing your name on a form, they can hardly be said to be exclusive. For most of them, the cost of membership is approximately the same as the cost of a food services contract, so even price is not really an issue.</p>
<p>Still, don’t take my word for it. Here are links to three recent articles from the Yale Daily News which do a very good job of explaining the Eating Clubs at Princeton, the Final Clubs at Harvard and the Secret Societies at Yale. I think you’ll find them useful and objective since they weren’t written from a Princeton perspective.</p>
<p>on</a> Princeton’s Eating Clubs on</a> Harvard’s Final Clubs on</a> Yale’s Secret Societies</p>
<p>In addition to social exclusivity, the charge that Princeton is extremely ‘preppy’ is also commonly made. You might be surprised to learn that Princeton has fewer prep school graduates than many of its most prominent competitors, including Yale.</p>
<p>As for Princeton being the choice of ‘rich’ students, well, Princeton has the Ivy League’s highest percentage of students on financial aid for its incoming class (measured as the total number of students receiving grants from the University). There is a very broad range of family incomes represented. My own large family was quite lower middle class (though proud!) and my father never finished high school.</p>
<p>As for the implication that Princeton is homogenous and overwhelmingly white, again, there is simply no truth in it. Princeton has approximately the same racial distribution as its competitors with students from across the globe. When speaking specifically about minority students, you might note that Princeton was recently recognized by the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education as the third best university in the nation (after only Duke and Emory) in terms of attracting and providing support services for African-American students. It also had the highest black enrollment in the Ivy League for the freshman class entering last fall. Princeton was also ranked by Hispanic Magazine (March 2006) as the second best school for Hispanics in the group of 25 leading national universities surveyed. Princeton came in second only to Harvard. Princeton was also just recognized by a leading gay and lesbian magazine as one of the 20 most supportive universities for gays, lesbians and transgender students.</p>
<p>Does any of this sound like the university being described by some of the posters above?</p>
<p>All students should visit and make their own judgments if at all possible. If not possible, call the Princeton Admission office and ask to arrange to speak with a current student. They’ll be happy to assist and you’ll be able to get a far less biased view than you’ll often get from postings on these threads.
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<p>For balance, here's a more critical take on the clubs:</p>
<p>
<p>As a disclaimer, I'm not a member of a club, but I eat in the clubs routinely - at least three times a week at both sign in and bicker clubs. I'm frequently guested in by friends, and on occasion I just walk in and join my friends when there's no mealchecking (some clubs simply don't care, and many people are just lazy about the whole meal exchange system). In terms of bicker clubs, I've actually participated in the bicker process and frequented the clubs during party nights. So that's what I know. Take it with a grain of salt if you want.</p>
<p>To address some of the concerns about the eating clubs, I will go out and say this: they are definitely real.</p>
<p>It's true that the eating clubs are pervasive. With about 75% of students joining a club, it's hard when you're not part of the system but your friends are. At Princeton there is a sizeable group of people who simply do not care about the street and live happily in independent housing. There are also some people who have many friends at the street. By junior year, you'll see your friends much less than before if you're not in the same club or part of the street system. The University is trying to remedy that with the four year colleges, as well as giving all upperclassmen three meals a week in the dining halls. This allows anyone to eat with anyone else. Before then, those who were not part of the street had to count on their friend's four or so guest meals every month as the only opportunities to eat. Not eating everyday with your old friends is hard to get used to at first, so it takes a proactive effort to eat weekly meals with them. It used to be me calling them, but now they call me up on a regular basis to plan meals.</p>
<p>There's definitely a divide in the clubs. There was a recent New York Observer article published about the street. Those characterizations are largely true. Simply put, people prefer spending time with people who are similar. Clubs, whether bicker or sign-in, all have their cliques. Cliques and greek societies are a way of getting into clubs -- no one on campus disputes that football guys overwhelmingly prefer TI and Cottage, SAE frat boys like Ivy, and Triangle kids pack into Tower. Even Colonial, a sign-in club, has plenty of Asian cliques, and Charter is known for a strong engineering and band contingent. I hate to stereotype, but it's pretty to make an accurate guess which guys and girls will bicker which clubs within a few weeks of school. After three years and countless nights at the street, you learn that like attracts like. (Just an note: club populations do evolve, but they do so over longer periods of time. Within four years I haven’t seen much change, but talking to older alums from years before me show that club compositions definitely evolve).</p>
<p>As an RA at Princeton, my main qualm with the club system is that some people figure out the street immediately and become obsessed with it. Social climbers and children of the well-off immediately notice that bicker clubs overwhelmingly possess prettier, richer, and more party-hard types. Thus within a few weeks of orientation, the newness of Princeton wears out and you see the cliques already forming. Kids try for the next three semesters working on getting into these clubs. Sure, there are plenty who don't care too much, but there's a sizeable contingent who do. People are devastated when they don't get into a club, and it's even worse when all your roommates or your best friend does. I've talked to students who think that their social lives are ruined because they didn't get into a club. As these students enter junior year, they face conflicting feelings and pressures about re-bickering a club. Oftentimes, they’re forced to live through rejection again, since fall bicker acceptance rates are quite low.</p>
<p>Some bicker clubs have tried to make their bicker process more egalitarian and less degrading, but I can attest that it’s only a mild improvement. Tower Club has led the way with positive bicker, which means that no negative comments are made about bickerees during the discussion process. However, even the best rules cannot eliminate internal bias, and I’ve seen several questionable incidents regarding the bicker process to raise an eyebrow at. Among the Asian American community, more and more are actually bickering, but the rate of admittance remains far below that of Caucasians. Is it overt racism? Probably not. But like it or not, these clubs have an image to consider, and oftentimes a large Asian population is not in line with their image. I’ll leave it at that.</p>
<p>Now that I'm a senior, I've found that another major barrier to joining eating clubs is economic. I have several friends quitting eating clubs because the money is beyond them. Yes, Princeton has upped the financial aid, but the prospect of dropping out altogether at saving $5000 is just too tempting for those struggling to pay for college. I never joined a club because of my financial circumstances. Even with the increased financial aid now, it's not worth it for me to pay $5000 as an RCA to get 10 meals a week and a place to party. Senior year also comes into play too - many people express fatigue with the street as early as junior year, and many seniors slowly drift away from the street to work on theses or party with those closer to their age. Not surprisingly, a high percentage of students who quit or do not join clubs are low-income and minority.</p>
<p>Princeton's eating clubs arent all bad, however. This is definitely not meant to push people away from Princeton, or not apply at all. There's always free beer, some great parties, and even getting into a lot of the bicker clubs only requires knowing some members who will give you passes. The sign-in clubs are all open every Thursday and Saturday, and all it takes is an ID to get in and start partying. In this way, it's no different (and possibly better) than many frat systems at other universities. One needs to just party there, have fun, and accept that the bicker process should never serve as an objective evaluation of the person you are. Shirley Tilghman is also taking a proactive, if not somewhat controversial stance, by pushing the four year college system, free dining hall meals, eating club financial aid, and integrating upperclassmen into the campus system again. It’s a good step for now, but it’ll certainly take many years before you see big changes. Despite not being in a club, I’ve had plenty of fun there in my last three years and will certainly leave with some great party memories.
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<p>
<p>Like many CC viewers, I was fortunate enough to be admitted to Princeton, Harvard and Yale. I selected Princeton for academic reasons. It’s not that I didn’t consider a college’s social life to be important –- I very much believe it’s vital. I just figured that anywhere there were bright, interesting students, I would find my niche. And I still think that’s true. But in high school, I didn’t know an eating club from a secret society from a finals club from a hole in the ground. I congratulate those CC posters who have such fully developed opinions on eating clubs. They are much more knowledgeable and sophisticated consumers than I ever was back then.</p>
<p>I absolutely loved my eating club experience and so did the vast majority of people I knew at Princeton. Why? Well, why do P, H and Y have residential colleges to subdivide their student bodies? To create smaller, more intimate communities in which students can feel more at home. I think residential colleges are a great idea. Eating clubs are a logical extension of the same concept.</p>
<p>Residential colleges at P, H and Y generally have 400-500 students. Eating clubs have less than half that number of members, usually about 100-150. They’re even closer, warmer social infrastructures. The most descriptive word I can think of to convey my eating club experience is “comfortable.” I was very good friends with almost every single member of my club. (Yes, there were a couple of jerks, but you take the bad with the good.) It’s quite literally true that it’s almost impossible to be in an eating club and not have at least a hundred very close friends.</p>
<p>Even a residential college of 400-500 students is large enough that you can’t know everybody well. It’s about the size of a typical high school class with many of the same social phenomena taking place. In particular, it further subdivides into the usual cliques. We’ve all been to high school. You know what I’m talking about. But once the number of people in a group gets down below 150, a different social dynamic takes over. At that size, you really DO know everybody well. You see them and eat with them every day. If your high school cafeteria is like mine, after you buy your lunch, you head to the same table every day and eat with the same 10-15 close friends. Well, in an eating club, that “same table” is the whole dining room. There’s no need to synchronize going to meals with your friends because some will always be there. You know EVERYBODY. It’s a fantastic social environment.</p>
<p>Obviously, Princeton’s clubs are self-selected in a way that residential colleges aren’t. But the criticism that they therefore are divisive does not logically follow. By the time you join a club at the end of your sophomore year, you’ve already been in a residential college of roughly 450 randomly assigned people for two years. You’ve had a broad experience and made a variety of friends. Those friends don’t go away. You eat at their clubs and they eat at yours using meal transfers -- very simple. You spend time at all the clubs, especially on party nights. Junior year, my girlfriend was not in my club. Senior year, she was (different girlfriend, that is). No big deal. Of my eight roommates junior and senior year, only one was in my club. I loved the fact that I had a circle of friends from my dorm, a different group from my eating club, a third network from my academic department, and two further circles from my two major extracurricular activities. These various groups of friends overlapped, but were separate and distinct in a very healthy way.</p>
<p>I concede that eating clubs are probably most appropriate for people who by their personality are “joiners” and that not everybody is one. That’s why 25% of Princeton upperclassmen choose another option, whether it be staying in their underclass residential college for another two years, joining one of two student-run co-ops, or cooking for themselves. Some people just eat at the Frist Campus Center. No problem. Different strokes for different folks. But I submit that most Ivy League students by nature ARE joiners. And those people who want to be more “independent” have a wider range of options at Princeton than they do at almost any other school. If you’re a “joiner,” you win. If you’re not, you still win.</p>
<p>Hey, eating clubs aren’t for everybody. But I think that the vast majority of the kind of high-achieving, sociable people who are drawn to the Ivy League would LOVE them. My point isn’t that everyone should attend Princeton or join a club. But if you’re thinking about Princeton for academic reasons (and, yes, I think I chose correctly), then don’t be dissuaded by any CC eating club nay-sayers.</p>
<p>Think about it. Princeton and Harvard have the highest retention and graduation rates in the country. Princeton has by far the highest alumni donation rates. The totally unscientific and anecdotal Princeton Review lists Princeton in its “happiest students” category. If you’ve ever attended a Princeton reunion, you know that alumni are wacky in love with the institution. If Princeton students and graduates are THAT fond of the place, how could eating clubs be anything but a great experience for the vast majority of people who go through there?</p>
<p>But don’t take my word for it. Visit the campus, talk to the students and form your own opinion. Just don’t take as gospel the word of anybody who criticizes the eating clubs from the distant vantage point of New Haven or Cambridge, okay?
</p>
<p>For many years, Princeton was deserving of its elitist stereotype, but times have changed. Princeton is now an incredibly diverse place, in terms of its racial, socioeconomic, and ideological makeup. I won't pretend that you won't run into some extremely wealthy people here, but you will also meet students from extremely disadvantaged backgrounds. More often than not, it will be something in between. </p>
<p>High schoolers often see something mystical about the Ivy League, believing it to be almost otherworldly. Tagging Princeton with the snobby label is one way of making these views seem justified. The truth is that Princeton is not all that different from any other college. Sure, we have a bigger endowment and our students have higher test scores. But once you're here, you go to class during the week, unwind on the weekends, and take exams at the end of each term...just like you would anywhere else. Fundamentally, Princeton is made up of students trying to get an education, many of whom share the same passions, goals, hopes, and fears as yourself.</p>
<p>Come to think of it, I probably think of Yale as the preppiest Ivy right off the bat. Harvard and Princeton seem to be kicking the stereotype, though.</p>
<p>Ok first off, Princeton is not elitist/preppy...it's a great school with really really awesome chill people...the Ivy League stereotypes are in general outdated.</p>
<p>hookem168, this also applies to Yale...it's actually one of the least preppy Ivies (honestly, even less preppy than Princeton)</p>
<p>Also, Yale/Princeton/Harvard's FA systems are very very similar...and sometimes almost as unpredictable as their admissions :-) I have friends who chose H over Y because H gave better FA, and vice versa.</p>
<p>Princeton's actually fairly preppy, in my experience, though not in a snobbish or off-putting way. Yale, on the other hand, I didn't think was preppy at all.</p>
<p>so can any princeton students tell me if eating clubs are currently covered in FA?</p>
<p>For your junior and senior years (the years you are in a club), your financial aid award is increased by $2,000 to cover the average cost of board at an eating club. This does not cover social fees or sophomore dues.</p>
<p>So I am reading this book called "Student's Guide to Colleges: The Definitive guide to America's Top 100 schools written by the real experts - the students who attend them." For each school, three students give their input on the school. The book was published in 2006. It has given me doubts about whether or not I would really be happy at my choice of ivies: HYP. </p>
<p>The students portray these ivies (generally speaking) as schools where all anyone does is academics, and (in the case of princeton) where special societies and eating clubs rule the rest of the time. Is this true?</p>
<p>Also, I have never tasted alcohol and never will (religious reasons, so please don't tell me I will in college whether I think so right now or not!!!) Can I enjoy eating clubs and social events without having to be pressured to drink or feel like a social outcast?</p>
<p>Please ease my fears (or validate them if they are true). Thanks so much.</p>
<p>The best way to think about this issue is to divide time into four categories: time spent sleeping, studying, socializing, and pursuing EC's. Every student chooses to allocate time to each category differently, but nearly all students will spend a significant amount of time studying. It's Princeton, so I can't see why you would expect any differently. Students decide as early as freshman week which extracurricular activities they want to get involved in. Both of these time commitments, to academics and EC's, are made before it comes time to join a club. So in general, club life does not compete with academics and EC's for time. Students at every school like to set time aside to socialize. At Princeton, the dominant method of socializing happens to be the eating clubs. But that doesn't really have any bearing on how much time is allocated to the socializing category.</p>
<p>If you haven't read the eating club descriptions I posted above, I recommend that you do so. Students will not pressure you to drink, especially since you choose to abstain for religious reasons. And remember, most of the time you spend in a club will be spent eating, not partying (freshman year notwithstanding).</p>
<p>@ ivyleaguewannabe:</p>
<p>I don't mean to be antagonistic, but I just don't understand why you abstain from drinking for religious reasons. Is there something inherently immoral about alcohol? I just don't get it. </p>
<p>Also, it may be harder than you imagine. People may not fully respect your decision, especially if they themselves aren't overly religious or don't consider drinking to be against religion. In fact, I'd say almost every person I met in college was one of the two categories just stated. I'd say most people would understand if not drinking was due to a health problem or previous alcoholism, but a lot of people will probably try to pressure you into drinking. Furthermore, drinking is such a huge part of college life.</p>
<p>I'm with you ivyleaguewannabe...</p>
<p>I don't abstain from alcohol for religious reasons, but I still refuse to drink. I'm not saying its morally wrong, but it can lead to all kinds of problems. Pressure to drink is one thing that I don't look foward to in college.</p>
<p>Also, to dontno, there are several religions that prohibit alcohol consumption.</p>
<p>@ ivyleagewannabe: I had a similar concern as you when I was deciding between UChicago and Princeton (I am also strongly against drinking personally). I was worried since Princeton had a little more of a reputation for "partying" and that wasn't at all what I was looking for. When I visited Princeton Preview, I talked to one of the current students I spent time with there about it, and she let me know that she actually had the same concern before going to Princeton. She chose to stay in Substance-Free Housing (as did the others I spent time with) and let me know that many of the students there don't drink and typically aren't quite as likely to go to parties for their social fix or "be loud." The fact that I met students who had the same interests as I did and that they provide substance-free housing to find friends who also don't enjoy that lifestyle or at least respect those who don't was a huge plus for Princeton. It's clear that most students do party and probably a strong majority drink, but from my short 2-day experience there, it sounded like there more than enough options and similar-minded people for you to find your niche there.</p>
<p>Though I have no personal experience with eating clubs or social events, I tend to think Weasel has the right idea that for the most part you really aren't going to feel any pressure. That's what I have heard overall from other students. Perhaps you'll feel some, though this may depend on who you choose to associate with and how much social pressure you tend to feel.</p>
<p>If there's one thing that I realized when I visited the schools, it's not so much what the average student does: it's if you can find your niche. Princeton definitely has many, many avenues for widely varied students, and this is no exception--it seems to me, anyway.</p>
<p>@dontno: Muslims aren't allowed to drink.</p>
<p>@ Weasel:</p>
<p>Yes I was aware of that, but I just don't understand why any religion would consider alcohol to be inherently immoral? It's a fricking beverage! I understand abstaining from drinking for practical reasons. I count myself amongst this group as I do not drink whatsoever. But as far as religion, I find the rule rather absurd. For example, there are also plenty of other things that religions (or at least their holy books) outlaw that no one in their right mind would take heed of. For a humorous take on this issue, this guy spent a year following every biblical law possible (besides stoning infidels and rowdy children to death): Amazon.com:</a> The Year of Living Biblically: One Man's Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible: A. J. Jacobs: Books</p>