the importance of math?

<p>Hi folks,</p>

<p>My daughter is a rising senior who wants to study fine arts. She seriously hates math. Her SAT math score was in the low 400's, CR in the mid 600's. She refuses to take any math in her senior year of high school, which I think is a big mistake. Her grades are so-so, starting pretty low (B's, C's, and D's in sophmore year) but rising to the B range in junior year. It was math and science that killed her GPA in the early years of high school. </p>

<p>Anyway, she is looking at a mix of standalone art schools (Mass Art) and universities/colleges (U Mass Amherst, Hampshire College, for example). How badly will skipping math in senior year hurt her chances for entry into an art program? She is still working on her portfolio. I suspect that Mass Art doesn't care about the math, but what about universities? Even though she is entering for a studio art degree?</p>

<p>Our kids could be twins.
It will limit her choices of colleges she could apply which is better in the way, because in the end you can only go to one school at the time.
I think, the answer depends on what kind of HS she attends.
If suburban better than average HS but she chose/ tracked into " not doing top academic colleges anymore" then it is OK not taking math assuming she can graduate ( ouch ouch here) but better have decent GPA, 3.7 and up-sh from now on.
If she is in nowhere HS and everyone else is not doing top colleges ever in the school history, I don’t see any problem at all, and her SAT as is should place her in top 25% of the class.
If the HS is nationally ranked and everyone taking 8 APs and get test scores 4 or 5, where no one ever gone to second tire art schools, she is in bit of trouble. She might be in minority not doing 4 years of everything and even though humanities are her strength, it won’t cut it in class rank wise, then going to half decent big public University where numbers dominate everything would be difficult.
I’m in NY and not so sure about Mass schools, but my take so far is, Massart > Purchase, UMass Amherst=SUNY New Paltz? Then she should be fine for either, assuming GPA 2.8-3.5 sh, her essay, rec, portfolio are decent. At Purchase and NP, math requirement for would be art kids are kind of low and give remedial class for under priveraged kids upon acceptance. BA would be harder but for BFA, college math science are like, joke. Again, I don’t know if that apply in Mass.
I don’t know what her concentration is, but whatever it is going to be, you will need commonsense math.

  1. about all adobe softwares are number heavy
  2. all physical art need measurement; 2D 3D formula length hight width depth, how to draft and plan circles, triangles, hexagon, cube, cone, cylinder
  3. all materials; how many sheet of paper in one pad with what weight means how thick or thin the piece, estimating how big canvas/ how big tub or tube of how many paint for how much money, how much liquid to how much powdered medium
  4. time; how long it takes to dry, cover entire surface, to set, ready to manipulate, to be safe to seal…
    math just won’t go away, it helps to take it as necessary evil and learn to use calculator quick and correctly, make sure to check and re-check that amount of zero is right.</p>

<p>It is unfair how it comes so natural for some and such a pain to the rest but, I hold hope in Jamie Oliver.
He was an awful student until he started in culinary school and had to weigh, measure, count, estimate and judge through physical practice and sheer necessity and desire for mastery. Cooking is part math and science, art and crafts are, too.
Let us hope.</p>

<p>My d was in the same situation. She had all the math she needed for grad and was not interested in taking pre-calculus. SAT’s were 500 in math, much higher in reading. She had planned all along to go to a standalone art school, and knew how what she needed to get in, and told the guidance counselor that. But to get the GC to not sign her up for another math class, we had to promise to call the schools she was applying to and see if they required 4 years of math. We did not bother, because we knew the answer. Her GPA would have suffered, and she took an extra year of science instead, which she does very well in. Without the extra yr. of math, she still got merit scholarships to all 3 schools she applied to. BTW, I consider her high school is one of those “nowhere” high schools B&D’s refers to. Only 12% of the graduating seniors go to a 4 year college, 45% go to comm college.</p>

<p>I got the impression that most art schools look at lot more closely at the English/Writing scores than math.</p>

<p>Art schools can be expensive and the job market for art graduates is not highly paid. I would see what math she can take senior year to keep her skills fresh in preparation for the state U. art program (which will probably require at least one math class, which she could take at a neighboring community college and transfer in).</p>

<p>Don’t think only about admission - think about the cost. Your state university options are probably cheaper than a stand alone art school. It’s too early to limit your options.</p>

<p>a) My D is at a large, affluent high school that is known to colleges. This doesn’t make her look great, as one of the lowest achieving math students.</p>

<p>b) She does know common sense math, she’s not that bad. Her math average for junior year was a B-, not great but not shameful either. Still, she bombs on the SAT. </p>

<p>c) bchan1, I agree with you, the state schools would be great if she could get in.</p>

<p>d) I’m still making a last-ditch effort to convince her to take math next year. She has until late August to decide. I need to get her to buy into it. I don’t believe that forcing her will pay off, she could just throw it away anyway by not doing her best.</p>

<p>good test score ( at least 500>) could show her effort?
try ACT, it is slightly better, but if you are from SAT dominated area but hide SAT score, they might get suspicious.
or
try this trick some wiz told me, thou my kid can’t do commonsense math, so it was too hard for him</p>

<p>THE SAT TRICK
This strategy only works if you are fast with the calculator - you can’t use it on every problem because this method can be time consuming.</p>

<p>Before you start, read the problem and see it it’s primarily an algebraic problem (i.e. it gives you an equation and wants a straight-up answer, or it’s disguised as a word problem but needs algebra to be solved). If it isn’t, don’t use this method. If it is, try to see if you can solve the problem WITHOUT using this method. If it’s an easy problem and you know the answer for sure, don’t waste valuable time. If you still can’t get it, proceed on.</p>

<p>First, for each algebraic coefficient, pick a different “test case” number. While a test case number can technically be any number not equal to 0 or 1, it is advantageous to pick small numbers to reduce the size of the problem. Don’t assign the same test case number to separate coefficients - this may occasionally cause errors.</p>

<p>Once you select a test case number (or numbers), plug ‘em into the problem, replacing each instance of the variable with its assigned test number. Once you have done that, there should be no more remaining variables. Then, do the arithmetic and simplify the problem down to a single number. (i.e. if you plug in 3 to 4x-5, simplify it down to 4(3)-5 which equals 7.</p>

<p>At this point, you know what the “test case” problem results in. So, the last step is finding the correct answer “test case” solution, and therefore, the solution to the problem. Go through the multiple choice answers one by one, starting with A, and do the same thing you did above - plug in the test case numbers where appropriate and simply. The correct answer to the entire problem is the test case answer that is equivalent is the test case problem.</p>

<p>Sample problem:</p>

<p>“ x?4 - x?9 =” (? is the square root sign)</p>

<p>A. -5x
B. -x?5
C. -x
D. x
E. 3x</p>

<p>This is actually a really, really simple problem. The square root of 4 is 2 and the square root of 9 is 3, so all this is asking is “2x-3x =” </p>

<p>But, some people might have trouble recognizing it and might not be sure how to do it. Simple manipulation of the algebra makes it easy.</p>

<p>Plug 3 into the original problem, such that each instance of x = 3.</p>

<p>3?4 - 3?9</p>

<p>Just do the multiplication on the calculator (you still need to be able to recognize arithmetic operations, and the correct order they go in).</p>

<p>Simplification yields 6 - 9. The answer is -3.</p>

<p>Then, plug in 3 into all the choices that are given. The one that is equal to the answer you just got (-3) is the correct solution to the problem.</p>

<p>So it’s C), because plugging 3 into -X results in -3.</p>

<p>Sample #2</p>

<p>“There are K gallons of gasoline available to fill a tank. After d gallons have been pumped, in terms of k and d, what percent of the gasoline has been pumped?”</p>

<p>A) 100d/k %
B) k/100d %
C) 100k/d %
D) k/100(k-d) %
E) 100 (k-d)/k %</p>

<p>When you plug in numbers, make sure to use different ones. Try k = 4 and d = 2.</p>

<p>The hard part is figuring out what the problem’s equation should be.</p>

<p>It’s asking you what percent of the gasoline has been pumped. Just reading the problem, 2 if half of 4, so you’ve pumped 50%. Now, you just have to plug in k and d into all the possible answers until you find the one that equals 50%.</p>

<p>A is [100(2)/4]% = [200/4]% = 50%. So A is the correct answer here.</p>

<p>Now, the caveat is that this method is slower than conventional problem solving. So don’t use it on every problem because you will otherwise run out of time. But you should still use it on problems you don’t know.</p>

<p>MomofDaughter,</p>

<p>I was sort of in the same situation as your daughter this past year. I had about the same SAT scores and I absolutely HATE math, though I did have better grades (though that was probably because I had some pretty crappy teachers who graded based on behavior). Fortunately for me I knew I wanted to go to an art school (and didn’t apply to any liberal arts school), but I do live in MA so I know a little something about the UMass schools.</p>

<p>In terms of getting into UMass Amherst for art, you daughter will probably still need to take math because Amherst is the best UMass school AKA people do actually get rejected. Although I didn’t apply to any schools besides art schools, I did take a math class just in case I changed my mind. The math class I chose though was the easiest senior math class. I would suggest to your daughter that she take math, but take the easiest math. That way she will have it on her transcript but not be bogged down with math every night.</p>

<p>That being said, I’ve heard UMass Dartmouth has the best art program compared to other UMass schools. You may be able to pass without a math class if applying to Dartmouth. Also, I know you definitely won’t need a senior year math class if applying to other state schools like Framingham State, Fitchburg State, Salem State etc. for art, though I don’t know if your daughter is willing to compromise academics.</p>

<p>Keep in mind though that if your daughter does go to a UMass school or any other non-art school, she will be taking math. No need to skip a year of math and be further behind in college.</p>

<p>Well… the thing that matters most is her portfolio. If her overall grades are decent then that’s good. A lot of schools are realizing what a waste of time the SAT really is and generally discount the grade. Most art colleges know that math isn’t the most valued subject to their students, so they give them some slack.</p>

<p>In high school i realized that my math scores were not going to make or break my getting in to college, so i did the minimum to graduate, only answered about 6 math questions on the entire SAT, and still got in to the art school i wanted to [Pratt] AND got a scholarship while other art schools i showed artwork to offered scholarships [even though i didn’t apply to them]. Later, i transferred to the Cooper Union. Due to the way that Pratt’s curriculum and Cooper’s work together, i never have to take a math OR science class [although now i actually wouldn’t mind… i study in my free time].</p>

<p>So if she’s allowing herself to neglect math, then she should concentrate on her portfolio.</p>

<p>wowww Cooper kid !! suppose doing art? which year? was your stuff in the last show?
Are you a local kid? then I should shut up. someone I know might know someone who knows you. let’s not name the names.</p>

<p>far as I remember this OP and D are looking for some sort of middle ground inexpensive schools not only art-art schools.
and those big state Us are the last one standing SAT GPA class rank numbers ground and some don’t bother look at portfolio nor read essays til you clear numbers.
lucky you didn’t have to go down that road.
like, I read Cooper art won’t look at math score and only asks two units math science each.
But again, this year, kids who got in are pretty smart who gotten cross admitted to brain schools.
Maybe they want some portion of freshman straight out of HS to be academic all around smart assuming they ace hometest to make them presentable as whole art student body toward arch/ eng nerds.
anyways, I don’t think we could use Cooper or Pratt for that matter for guideline of this OP’s case.</p>

<p>^Edit from math moron
I meant score 500 and up, which should be 500<, yes?</p>

<p>^and sorry if I offended UMass folks, I have heard countless times how Amherst college folks disregard UMass Amherst (that ZooMass, or something in that line) and did not know nor checked the fact where it place in Mass state system.</p>

<p>Mollie14 - So far I can’t get my D to show interest in U Mass Dartmouth. She could easily get in there and they DO have the better art program, but being in Dartmouth just doesn’t excite her. She is not thinking this through totally rationally, but then, if she was, she’d be taking math this coming year.</p>

<p>Bears - Yes, U Mass Amherst used to be known as zoo-Mass, but I think those days are behind it. It’s much more selective than it used to be, it’s in a great college town, and it offers all the opportunties of many large private universities at half the price. The art program is not one of the best.</p>

<p>same thing here SUNYs CUNY honors.
if economy won’t turn around soon, our options are limited even more so.
Good luck we really need it.</p>

<p>Bears - I want D to apply to SUNY Purchase. What do you know about it? Are you familiar with SUNY New Paltz?</p>

<p>Purchase was used to be safety, being priority portfolio review in Feb and stuff, it is not mechanical SUNY admission, suppose one in four is admitted but anyone alive and breathing could apply, so its selectivity is questionable. They had seats opening after spring in couple years back.
It all changed NJ CT rather nice kids start applying there for $ reasons.</p>

<p>New Paltz is bit of a mixed bag. They don’t ask for Math B regents passing ( NY’s own, say, algebra 2? it is pretty basic HS stuff) so my take is not exactly brainy. Lots of kids go for nursing, education, not quite artsy as it lead to believe as whole student body. My kid was scared of so many painted long nails and big hair do-s we saw at cafeteria and dorm tour. Again, it was used to be “easy” SUNY but it become more selective, my niece from good parochial school nice GPA was rejected because of low test score ( 24 ACT 1600 (all three) SAT-sh) for education wannabe.
It is iffy how much portfolio would counts, the guy ( adjunct faculty/ technician) we met and talked to said good portfolio won’t save you if you don’t have the number.
I liked NP better than Purchase, my kid is in reverse. Some kid he know now attend Purchase smoke lots of weed and coasting thru. I don’t know if it is a good thing or not. ( kid is a good print maker, quite poor academics)</p>

<p>PS
what turns me off about purchase is not accessible by public transportation all hours. Outer city folks tend to think proximity to NYC is great for art school but only up to shuttle bus schedule and expensive Metro North with spotty runs. the school is in this driving loop and on the parking lot, unattractive buildings scattered about.
I know if program is good, it does not matter what hardware is, but but but, the art building reminded me of his middle school with ugly brick wall, immature graffiti on the rocker and trash strewn around in studios, broken florescent lights.
If you have in state MassArt, I won’t bother.
I hear often kids we know transferring out to Pratt Parsons etc to be in the “city” and THE “artschool” for real, yet to see who stick with it and earned BFA debt free.
^ by no means you should take anything we saw as the solid facts, visit and see for yourself.
I tend to notice what’s wrong about every school, not much of what good about, for fine art education is the biggest mystery and money eater, i am forever skeptical.</p>

<p>MomofDaughter,</p>

<p>Your daughter isn’t alone. I would say most art students either don’t care for math or flat out hate the subject. My daughter is going to be a freshmen in college next month and we pretty much made her take math for both semesters of her senior year. She took something like ‘Intro to college math’. She really grumbled, said it wasn’t needed, yada, yada. Please just take it honey?</p>

<p>She hated it at the time but now she is really REALLY happy she did. It’s my belief that by taking those senior math classes she:
1.) Received extra points on her college applications and was a slightly stronger candidate;
2.) Qualified to skip one freshmen math class;
3.) Now has to complete only one college math class and she is done with math forever.</p>

<p>I know your daughter hates the idea but if she just took the weakest math class they offer she will perhaps improve her chances during the application process. </p>

<p>Best of luck to her!</p>

<ul>
<li>Wheaty</li>
</ul>

<p>PS. If she gets angry you can just blame me! :)</p>

<p>Wheaty,</p>

<p>Thanks for the wise advice…I’ll give it the old college try. My D can be a handful. </p>

<p>This summer she did work on her application essays and now she’s taking a pre-college art program, so she’s doing what she has to do. If I can only convince her to take math we’ll be doing pretty good.</p>

<p>As a math lover, I really hate to see the generalizations that art students hate math. Someone early on seems to equate artistic interests with poor math skills…then went on to make sure that artistic children were steered away from quantitative and science areas. When I look at my son, I see that there is a close relationship between his success in art and his math aptitudes. His ability to think spatially enables him to effortlessly capture perspective in his sketches–even at 4 he figured the back leg on a table had to be shorter than the front when drawing from an angle–but he also can visualize math functions and in 9th grade when he first saw matrix transformations he could figure out what the final function or shape would look like. I am a math “whizz” but I would give my eye teeth to be able to mentally visualize what I do computationally. Similarly, good observational skills are important for artists but also scientists…S likes to break down his art projects and analyze why they aren’t “working” …it bugs him and he thinks and looks and tries different things until he gets that ah-ha moment and solves the issue…like a math problem or an unexplained observation in sciences. Thus, being good at math is helped by good spatial and observational skills (like art)…good computational skills are fundamentally a result of good teaching and practice (a bit like sketching and painting). Never give up on math–it will be part of your life for the rest of your life–and artists should see math as another type of art, one that they may or may not practice at a high level but has its own beauty and creativity.</p>

<p>OP- Im guessing your D doesnt hate math, she hates high school math and math tests.</p>

<p>Here is my vote- Dont make her take math senior year. It will bring down her gpa and create a lot of work for no return (in her mind.) However, make her do what she needs to do to bring her SAT math grade up. If she got a math grade that low, clearly math makes her suffer. I know, and have tutored the type. </p>

<p>My S got into all the schools he applied to, and didnt take math senior year. He had a high math SAT, but I dont think any schools looked at it in particular, more sort of how his overall SAT was. </p>

<p>In terms of the debate about art/math I agree with FAM. My S says that doing art made him better at math.</p>

<p>Also, fun math thing for art kids to do- get them to google images of fractals…</p>

<p>Juxtapose magazine had a comment by an featured artist that said something to the effect that that algebra and calculus were hard for art kids but geometry was something they could relate to with angles, perspective, etc. If I can find the exact quote, I’ll repost. But I found it interested because this was the case with D. Did well in Geometry, but when doing algebra homework had to put the variables in colors so she could figure out what was going on.</p>