<p>I don’t know how to classify my D. I don’t think she is shy in the sense she will gladly go places without knowing anyone there, and has no trouble relating to authorities, eg. asking teachers questions in class. But she doesn’t throw herself into the core of social situations; she enjoys events and may even be energized by attending them, but she stays in the background or on the fringes. The issue is mostly self-awareness and social adeptness. When she is clear on the roles at work in a situation, like the classroom, she’s comfortable. She would likely bomb an interview because she would not be able to read a stranger well enough to tailor her responses and behavior accordingly. </p>
<p>Regarding college applications, I anticipate a major issue with the essays because she is not very expressive. She is not at all introspective and spends little time, if any, thinking about her feelings. In fact, she never talks about her emotions–only about what she thinks and plans. She is far more interested in facts and ideas than in the workings of people, including herself. Naturally, she knows if she feels bad, but probably won’t be able to pinpoint why. Any question asking her to describe herself, her attributes, what kind of roommate she’d like, how she’d fit in the life of the college, how she has impacted the community, etc. would be very tough for her.</p>
<p>She recently took the personality survey on Naviance and came out as ISFJ. The printed summary was pretty accurate, and suggested jobs with minimum social interaction. That’s great, but the entry to jobs is the interview, which can entail a dinner and/or reception as well. Similarly, the more selective colleges do require interviews, and my sense was that these were about assessing likeability and charisma.</p>
<p>The amount of “parsing” that goes on every time someone brings up the word “introvert” on CC is incredibly annoying. Everyone wants to tell the story of THEIR introvert who is still a leader and great public speaker. I would say that is someone who is close to the middle of the introvert/extrovert spectrum. People who fall way over on the I scale do have trouble talking to people, especially when they are still teenagers – to some extent you can train yourself out of it, but difficult to do at that age. And stop with the “shy is not introverted”. Most people who are way over on the I scale act shy even if the definition is slightly different.</p>
<p>TheGFG, one thing you will want to do is encourage your D to leave plenty of time for her essays and have someone (you? a coach?) willing to read and discuss with her to try to draw out a deeper understanding in her essays, planning to have her do several drafts of each one. I totally agree with you that the interviews are getting at likeability & charisma, too. One thing we thought long and hard about was whether my D2 would want to go to a college where that was very high on the list of desired traits. With the possible exception of MIT, that does seem to be what they are looking for. My D ended up applying places where she felt that they were more interested in academic chops and intellectual interests (U of Chicago, Swarthmore, Harvey Mudd, etc.) And was accepted everyplace she applied without interviewing.</p>
<p>You have it half-right. It’s been said about introverts that giving a speech to 300 people is no problem as long as they don’t have to mingle and do small-talk with people afterwards.</p>
<p>Multiple people have suggested public speaking for confidence, but aversion to public speaking has nothing to do with introversion.</p>
<p>I think shyness and introversion (two distinct concepts) aside, one problem for the OP’s daughter may be that, in my opinion, the creation of art and self-promotion are diametrically opposite processes. Or at least, she may have no practice in self-promotion.</p>
<p>But intparent, shy and introverted are two different concepts. </p>
<p>An introvert may be able to give the speech to 300 people and just not want to mingle afterwards. But the introvert is perfectly happy not mingling. The person who is shy WANTS to mingle, but isn’t comfortable doing so. Introversion doesn’t cause self distress. Shyness can and does. Introversion is about how one recharges and how one feels in one’s own company (fine or lonely).</p>
<p>It’s not just political correctness, though. Public speaking is a performance; it’s not like socializing. And extroversion only helps certain kinds of leadership. Like, for instance, I wouldn’t expect an introvert to end up as president of a large student body, something that depended on going out and meeting like 300 people just for the sake of knowing everybody. But captain of a sport or leading an activity–I certainly would not be surprised to see an introvert in that role.</p>
<p>Who knew that the definition of introvert is such a wide ranging thing. As far my daughter goes, she’s perfectly fine around her close circle of friends, family, etc. She can even speak well, if she must, to others. The big difference for her is that she will never be the kid to volunteer to speak in front of a large crowd. She won’t go out of her way to be noticed or be the center of attention. She loves to observe and take it all in. She’ll spend hours painting or reading and be perfectly content. Sometimes we have to bug her a bit to go out with her friends just to make sure she’s not missing out on social events.</p>
<p>collegealum314 - You are correct in that she does not do self-promotion well. Never has. Yeah, her mother (me) would be the complete and total opposite there! I am trying to be the understanding mom here but honestly, if she wants to pursue anything in the arts field, she will have to deal with self-promotion. So, while I’m not pushing the issue too much now, I am hoping she blossoms in college. She’ll need to especially given one of her chosen fields requires a pretty thick skin.</p>
<p>Collegealum is exactly right. I can get up in front of any crowd, lead / facilitate workshops, speak authoritatively in my field of expertise, and I will come across as outgoing, sociable, gregarious, all those things. But what you don’t know is that I use even small breaks (like a bathroom or coffee break) to get back inside my own head to recharge. Because I’m an introvert and being “on” with others exhausts me. In person, most people would say I’m reserved until they get to know me, and I have a small group of close friends but not lots of acquaintances. I am a classic, textbook INTJ.</p>
<p>I haven’t read the whole thread but I do think that you need to separate being an introvert from being shy. Not all introverts are shy. I am the parent of 3 kids. 2 Introverts and 1 Extroverts. They all have friends. They are all socially functional. NONE of them are shy. Not even the introverts.</p>
<p>Being an introvert just means that person is more inwardly focused than outwardly focused. It means that a person uses a lot of energy in social interactions and needs to refuel after extended social interactions. But it does NOT mean that person is socially fearful, which is what shyness is. Being shy is a behavior that can be changed. Being introverted is an integral part of who a person is and really cannot be changed (nor should it).</p>
<p>Not all introverts are shy. My oldest son is an introvert but he was the captain of three teams in high school. My youngest son is an introvert but he won his class speech contest. Neither of them are shy. If they want to say something they say it. They both have friends. They just don’t feel the need to be with their friends 24/7. This past weekend we were at a lacrosse tournament with our youngest son. After the games were over the boys got together and ordered some food and socialized. My son stayed from about 6-8:30 and then he left the group to watch some college football. He likes other people and has fun with his friends but he needs time alone. That is being an introvert. He is not afraid to say what he wants and to interact with his friends. He is not shy.</p>
<p>Being afraid to communicate your ideas to other people (shyness) will hamper anyone’s career in any field. Simply being an introvert will not. If your daughter is shy I would look for programs that are nurturing but also look for programs that will require that she learn the skills necessary to speak up for herself. A larger program where she will not be socially isolated might work well for her. Small groups tend to be cliquish and that might not work for the young lady who needs to feel accepted before she is willing to share her ideas.</p>
<p>However we label these traits, shyness or introversion, I think it is worthwhile to be aware of how we are, to have some self insight. The introvert can know she will be exhausted after a party and need some time alone to recharge. The shy person can know she will feel uncomfortable at the party, and go into the situation with some coping strategies. And we can cut ourselves and our loved ones some slack if they react differently than what we expect. </p>
<p>I think there is pressure on the shy and the introverted to be more outgoing and extroverted in our culture. It is true in college admissions, and true in life. Recognizing this is half the battle. </p>
<p>Back to the OP, her daughter can know she isn’t comfortable selling herself, whether because she is shy or introverted, and figure out ways to talk about herself and her art ahead of time. I find visiting my husband’s family and friends exhausting. The visits seem so long and so chaotic to me. I have to carve out time alone to run and read and to be by myself to deal with the onslaught.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl said it much more succinctly than I could. Shyness is a behavior that causes distress. Being an introvert is part of who a person is. My introverted kids are very social and not at all shy.</p>
<p>Intaparent: I think you have it wrong. There is a difference between being introverted and being shy. A big difference. An introvert might be perceived by others as shy but that does not mean they are shy. Shyness is fear. Introverts are not necessarily fearful of social situations they just seek fewer social situations that Extroverts. Barbara Walters, Al Gore and Johnny Carson are all introverts. </p>
<p>An introvert gets energy from within. After social situations they need time alone to refuel. That does not mean they do not enjoy social situations.</p>
<p>I have an issue with saying that if a child is not wildly social, does not thrive in public speaking engagements, etc, then it is based on shyness only and not introversion. There are different types of introverts. I have a kid who does not seek the limelight but does fine in small settings. I don’t think this is shyness or fear. I think it’s just part of what makes her the person that she is and is part of her introverted nature. She prefers smaller settings. She doesn’t do well if she is thrown in with a bunch of extroverts and expected to be more outgoing than them.</p>
<p>There have been some suggestions that a kid like my own would not succeed in life unless she is able to change this facet of her personality. I’m married to a man with her personality. He’s done very well in his life even though he’s never sought the limelight either. His accolades, like my daughter, comes from his accomplishments and not his own self promotion. I imagine that’s where the phrase let your work speak for itself comes from.</p>
<p>I’m sorry but I’m not buying that if you put an extrovert and an introvert next to one another in a competitive social type of situation that the introvert will be able to be just as outgoing as the extrovert.</p>
<p>I’m an introvert, and the primary thing to understand about introverts is that the kind of social interactions that extroverts thrive on wears us out. It’s not that we can’t do it, but it has to be “worth” it to use up all our energy. </p>
<p>How good someone is at public speaking or at “working a room” is not necessarily correlated to introversion/extroversion. These are learned skills and introverts can (and must) learn them. This is not asking them to “be an extrovert” for a few hours. It’s asking them to participate in a social convention that is tiring for them and energizing for extroverts, but which both can (and do) do equally well, so long as the introvert has time to recharge alone afterward (and beforehand). Introverts sometimes avoid learning/practicing these skills because they drain their energy, so in consequence, they may not be as good at them as someone who is energized by practicing them, which is why they tend to be seen as “extrovert skills”. If someone is extremely uncomfortable during the interaction, versus just drained afterwards, that is more of a “social anxiety” thing than an “introvert” thing. Someone who is “merely” introverted without any social anxiety can be quite comfortable, friendly, and outgoing in social settings, as long as they get them in limited doses.</p>
<p>“Multiple people have suggested public speaking for confidence, but aversion to public speaking has nothing to do with introversion.”</p>
<p>No, it doesn’t. But some of the techniques you might learn from public speaking would also be useful in interview type situations. Interviews aren’t public speaking of course but they can be rehearsed and prepared for in a way that a purely social interaction cannot. </p>
<p>As an introvert myself I find it helpful to think if interviews as a kind of perfirmance. I used to do debate in high school and its similar in some ways. You prep in a general sense, you identify things that you know you want to get across. But you are interacting with someone else so there’s an element of uncertainty as far as what they will throw at you.</p>
<p>And I’m not buying that introversion and extroversion are like an on/off switch. There is a continuum, and people fall all along it. This excessive labeling is a bad thing, IMHO. (It’s like gender identity: why does every person have to pick one or the other? Who cares? why not accept fluidity?)</p>
<p>Meyers Briggs is useful in that it gives insight into the different ways people process and function. It should not be used as a stick to beat the “extroverts” with, which is what I’ve seen every time it comes up. Nor should it be used as an excuse for never attempting to grow as a social being.</p>
<p>No one is beating up extroverts, Consolation. I’m not sure where you get that from. And no one has said that I / E is an on-off switch. Of course people are on a continuum. </p>
<p>This sums it up very well: </p>
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<p>My H is an extrovert, and this comes naturally to him. It comes less naturally to my kids and me who are all introverts. My S is interested in politics, however, so he’s had to develop that skill - of understanding that “working the room” and being interested in other people’s points of view will ultimately help him accomplish his goals of leading XYZ organization. My D is more introverted, more like me, but she took a job in high school that involved public speaking and leading a crowd and enabled her to “put on that show” for a period of time - even though it’s draining. No one is saying that introversion should be an excuse for avoiding social contact or learning how to engage socially.</p>
<p>My business partner is the kind of person who, when she’s in a room, everyone knows. She’s loud (not in a bad way, but just attention-getting) and very theatrical in how she comes across. Those who don’t know better think she’s very extroverted. Those of us who know her better know that she’s an introvert and needs time by herself to process and recharge. We often lead workshops together for crowds between 20 - 80 people where we are “on stage” - and then we leave, go to dinner, and we say nothing to one another because we just can’t talk to anyone anymore!</p>
<p>I get that from the MANY times I have encountered meyers briggs in settings other than CC. Even here, we see links to articles that bash extroverts as simple-minded buffoons and claim that introverts are just, well, BETTER in so many ways. And yes, I think that people in this thread HAVE been talking as if I/E were an on/off switch, even though common sense tells us that that is not true. (I am happy to see various posters drawing a distinction between shyness/social anxiety and introversion, though.)</p>
<p>Something that has not been said is that extroverts find public speaking just as terrifying as everyone else, until they learn to do it. It is, I believe, the most common fear.</p>
<p>I have noticed, IRL, that some people seem to think that extroverts aren’t making themselves personally vulnerable when they speak up or make friendly overtures. The fact is, extroverts have feelings too. They are deeply wounded by being rebuffed or having their ideas denigrated, just like anyone else. The fact that they may take this risk more often than a very introverted person doesn’t change it. This is something that is often overlooked, in my experience, in these introvert vs extrovert discussions.</p>
<p>What you describe is someone who is an introvert but not shy. Someone who is shy wants to be more social, wants more interaction but fear stops them from being able to do so. Someone who is introverted is content to chose a more limited number of social interactions. It is the fear that make shyness debilitating. Introverts are typically happy to have more time alone whereas shy people are not happy with their shyness. It sounds like your daughter is an introvert but not necessarily shy (my sons are like that).</p>
<p>As you mention above she will have to learn to be able to advocate for herself in any arts career. If she is social in small social setting she should be able to learn to advocate for herself because that can often be done one on one or in small groups.</p>
<p>There are shy introverts AND shy extroverts. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Also, social “skill” tends to be a learned behavior - and also wrapped around self-confidence. All these concepts are different and not tightly coupled. If introversion, shyness or lack of social skill are a concern - then more research is needed to narrow down the real root cause of the concern.</p>