The Middle Class Get Screwed...again

Parents Forum
321

<p>I guess I missed all those "attacks on the poor," that you are referring to. I read several frustrated posters lamenting the cost of college and the apparent unfairness of the FA system. I never judged the plight of the less fortunate on this thread, I merely questioned FA policy.</p>

<p>FA status quo is apparently a sacred cow on this board. My questioning of its application got me labelled a "hater," even though I never made a single statement that attacked the poor.</p>

<p>Some of us who have had to make exhorbitant college tuition payments have sympathy for OP's frustrations. Why does that make us bad people?</p>

322

<p>^^By exorbitant do you mean excessive relative to the cost of the product? (Keeping in mind that private educational institutions often state that the actually cost of educating any student NOT on f.a. exceeds the tuition that family pays to the school.) Or do you mean exorbitant relative to your own income & outgo?</p>

<p>(Because poor people pay "exorbitantly" just to survive, with COL in the U.S.)</p>

<p>Finally, the term exorbitant generally means exceeding the value of the product. Again, if the product is overpriced, why are you purchasing it?</p>

<p>And it could have been that the 'attack on the poor' referred to the equivalent of "Let them eat loans." (Which, as others have pointed out, they most likely would NOT get because of their financial profiles.) </p>

<p>F.A. is tied to some sort of attempt (incomplete) at equity in ADMISSIONS. Without grant money, the lower income spectrum is shut out of admissions because they cannot enroll without heavier grant money than fuller paying customers.</p>

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<p>BAy, It doesn't; if the OP had begun by discussing the issue with a modicum of moderation, instead of an inflammatory title and insults to people who got FA, I think this thread would have run an entirely different course.</p>

324

<p>epiphany, why don't you tell me? Your D is going to Yale. If you had to pay $200k for her to attend, would you think it is exhorbitant?</p>

325

<p>You're playing rhetorical games with me instead of answering the questions I raised. It's important to define terms when you're engaged in a substantive argument, as we are -- rather than just throwing around terms that have no commonly held reference points.</p>

<p>And my daughter is not "going to Yale." She's enrolled at a different Ivy. If she had to pay 200K to attend, she would have to decline their offer of ADMISSION, which is the key concept you keep skirting, and which was the entire reason for the well-endowed Ivies coming up with the no-loan policy (or really, small loan; I don't anyone having "no" loan). One still pays for personal expenses -- more so if one is distant from home. As someone else mentioned, employment $ is capped, so to speak. And Work-Study (a feature of such "full" packages) is capped at the number of hours per week any student is allowed to put in.</p>

326

<p>
[quote]
Some of us who have had to make exhorbitant college tuition payments have sympathy for OP's frustrations.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The operative word here is "have" - you don't "have" to play the game. You choose you. Some how "whatever" school has convinced you that you "have" to pay exhorbitant college tuition.</p>

<p>I am sure you had choices. The OP certainly has choices and good ones at that.
I know a kid whose choices for a 4 years college education are seriously limited. She is a smart kid. She makes the honor roll, participated in school activities, got over 1800 on the SAT's, she has a job and has had to buy her own clothers and pay for her "stuff" since middle school. She even had to pay for her band trip to disney world. Unfortunately, she could not afford that trip to Europe with the Spanish club over spring break.<br>
She lives in PA and the amount of financial aid she will get at a State University (Not penn state or Pitt - but "lowly" Bloomsburg U) required her parents to fork over 2times what her EFC is. Not that there is anything wrong with Bloomsburg U.
Because she isn't smart enough or doesn't want to attend one of those "elite" schools that will "give" her 100% of "need" does that mean she is NOT worthy of financial aid?
If you had a choice with limited funds - who should get financial help?</p>

<p>For those families who are sucked in with exhorbitant tuition costs but have other excellent and affordable options - I have a hard time feeling sympathetic.
"Exhorbitant" is in the eye of the beholder.</p>

327

<p>I think that this particular discussion- hasn't defined what we are talking about.
What is "middle class"?
We haven't decided.
Does it mean " median family income"?
That is $61,000.
In the US.
If you want to talk median family income of Beverly Hills or median family income of Manhattan that is something else entirely.
As is median income of the Yankton Indian reservation or Cook County.</p>

<p>Without huge liquid assets, EFC seems to be 1/3- 1/4 or so of before tax income.</p>

<p>If your child is attending a school that charges $50,000 a year for tuition and expenses and they don't qualify for any need or merit aid, but the school meets full need, an EFC of $50,000 would suggest that family before tax income is $180,000 to $200,000.
Well above national median income. It is stretching it to suggest "middle class- unless you add " comfortable"</p>

<p>But my area is so expensive, you say.
That may well be, but then I assume the schools are great, giving your child a fantastic opportunity that a child living in Watts doesn't have.
Newish buildings, enough books and a cohort of students from families who are also doing well financially and can afford to pay the taxes.
If the schools aren't great, if everything is over priced, then how can you afford to live there?</p>

<p>Families making the lowest incomes can't afford to live in Manhattan.
Of the 15 poorest neighborhoods in the country none are in NYC, only one is in Los Angeles. Most are in Chicago, do many on CC live in Chicago?</p>

<p>When we began our family we lived in a deluxe neighborhood for Washington state. The schools were much better than Seattle, but since my D was a baby, I didn't know anything about schools, I did know that the perception of having money to spend on appearances, house/lifestyle/car was a big factor in day to day life.</p>

<p>I didn't need it, we moved to the city.</p>

<p>While I understand the complaints of those who feel that they are not upper class, therefore they must be middle, they are also conveniently forgetting that to most of the citizens of this country they are pretty well off.</p>

<p>If private colleges in an attempt to bring new faces onto its campus have their finaid cuttoff too high for a family making double six figures to get aid, that is apparently the price they have chosen to pay in an effort to get more seats for first gen college students and others.
I haven't seen that the numbers of families who don't qualify for aid turning away from the expensive colleges in any meaningfull numbers.
Maybe next year.</p>

328

<p>One thing no one has addressed in this "unfair" thread is that some kids are penalized by the FA system for their parent's choices while others are not. </p>

<p>My son has seen all of the following among his classmates: A parent decides (when the child graduates) that it's time to follow his dream and quits his job and live off his savings while writing, sailing, etc.; A parent who believes that students should "pay their way" and thus won't contribute to college; A parent is "guilty" of gross negligence. </p>

<p>All of these kids all suffer "the sins of their fathers". They are not awarded FA. </p>

<p>However, if the parent made the same decisions earlier, the money was never an issue and FA pays all. </p>

<p>In both cases, the student has nothing to say about it - but in one case the schools "save" the student from the decisions made by parents and in the other case, the student pays the price.</p>

329

<p>"But my area is so expensive, you say.
That may well be, but then I assume the schools are great, giving your child a fantastic opportunity that a child living in Watts doesn't have."
Not necessarily. My kid goes to an inner city school where all sporting events were recently cancelled for a period of time because of gang violence. Like the income post earlier, you can't just assume.</p>

330

<p>There is no correct answer to the problem each family faces of affording college. When I first came to this website, I had the naivete to be upset that every student who was good enough to gain admittance to a school couldn't necessarily find a financial way to attend. A year or more later, I admit to the same indignance. Its a shame when a worthy student is denied his or her best college opportunity because the money isn't there, but that is reality. Regardless, I still find the energy to advocate for some way to make it happen, but I don't have a solution. Obviously, no one does, yet.</p>

331

<p>Maybe I am mssing the point and am unduly provincial in my thinking, BUT where does it say in our constitution that everyone has the unconditional right to an expensive private school education?</p>

<p>I keep seeing all of these posts ( throughout CC and not just here) about "being poor" and "not being able to afford (select private school or ivy school name)" or " how unfair it is," or " financial aid should be grants and not loans (post 2 here)" or my favorite. " I am entitled to send my kids to any school my kids want and should get more than enough aid for it."</p>

<p>PLEASE SPARE ME! If you can't afford to send your kids to a private, expensive school, send them to a state school or start off in a junior college. This is what those colleges are for. Plenty of immigrants came to this country and got a terrific education at the City University of New York. They didn't whine, complain, or feel that something was owed them. They made the best with what they got and, as a group, was immensely successful. </p>

<p>Next I'll be seeing complaints about not being able to afford that home in Beverly Hills or being able to afford that nice BMW. How did we get to this entitlement mentality anyway?</p>

332

<p>" keep seeing all of these posts about "being poor" and "not being able to afford (select private school or ivy school name)" or " how unfair it is," or my favorite. " I am entitled to send my kids to any school my kids want and should get more than enough aid for it."</p>

<p>Post numbers please?</p>

333

<p>I don't know taxguy. Maybe they heard it from Harvard.
[quote]
We want to send the strongest possible message that Harvard is open to talented students from all economic backgrounds," said Lawrence H. Summers, President of Harvard University, who addressed the American Council on Education's 86th Annual Meeting in Miami on Feb. 29. "Too often, outstanding students from families of modest means do not believe that college is an option for them — much less an Ivy League university. Our doors have long been open to talented students regardless of financial need, but many students simply do not know or believe this. We are determined to change both the perception and the reality."

[/quote]
You are a kid in Grinderswitch, what do you think after reading this on the web?</p>

334

<p>Or maybe Yale</p>

<p>Yale College admits students on the basis of academic and personal promise and without regard to their ability to pay. Once a student is admitted, Yale meets 100% of that student's demonstrated financial need. All aid is need-based; there are no athletic or merit-based awards. This policy helps to ensure that Yale will always be accessible to talented students from the widest possible range of backgrounds.</p>

335

<p>most of the posts actually using the word "entitled" apparently come from teens or young people who seem to have been motivated to excel academically because they thought there was going to be a dollar payoff at the end of high school.</p>

<p>The posts from parents that I remember, more run along the lines of -
I am so poor & can't afford what the college to which my child deserves to attend expects me to pay.-</p>

<p>BTW last year I bought myself a sports car for my birthday, does anyone have recommendations for Digital SLRs for this year & what sort of laptop should I buy my kid for graduating high school?</p>

<p>Not really any point in embarrassing those posters anymore than needed, eventually they will get it or they won't.</p>

336

<p>Just a self-correction. Work-study employment is capped per semester or academic year (I forget which), not per week. You get to work the max, & that's actually pretty small. It's all designed to keep your spending habits very, very frugal and/or require you to do without what is not within that budget (like the rest of the world), and/or obtain small loans which you will then be responsible for (like the rest of the world) after you graduate.</p>

337

<p>Bay - post # 330 we agree.</p>

<p>Harvard can only change the perception and reality within it's own Ivy walls.
Please - Parents, Kids: Harvard is an anomaly. They are the exception and not the rule! </p>

<p>The biggest mistake we made was staying in PA - the price of a public education is very unaffordable to many kids. If you live in a state with "cheap" instate tuition at your public colleges then embrace them. Look long and hard at the programs and what they have to offer.
My youngest has actually found a private school that will be cheaper for her to attend with a merit scholarship and financial aid than the cheapest State school in PA.</p>

338

<p>this is a fallacy.
I admit to the same indignance. Its a shame when a worthy student is denied his or her best college opportunity because the money isn't there</p>

<p>Is there a " best" college opportunity? No.
Not anymore than there is a " best " job, a " best" spouse, or a " best" dessert. ;)</p>

<p>How does the OPs daughter not have good options to paying full price?
From reading how much aid Emory usually offers- both need and merit, I suspect that she is actually on the low end of the academic totem pole, and Emory perhaps chose not to waitlist her on the offchance they came up with the money.
Our D is in at Emory with no aid; wait listed at Davidson
In at Fordham and Clemson with 20-50% merit aid
In at U of AL, Auburn, and U of K, all into their honors colleges, with full scholarship+</p>

339

<p>Some might find this interesting. Some may find it reprehensible, but I don't know why. ;)</p>

<p>
[quote]
In a Jan. 9 front-page article in The Stanford Daily, Director of Financial Aid Karen Cooper was quoted as saying, “I believe our financial aid program is one of the strongest in the country and we can all be proud of the University’s commitment to financial aid.” But should Stanford be content with having a “strong program?” The University was organized in 1891 on five founding principles as elucidated by the Stanford’s — one of those five principles was free tuition. Granted, times have changed (and so has the value of the dollar) but have they changed all that much? At the time, the University didn’t need to charge tuition because its endowment was so large. Now, the endowment stands at a little more than $17 billion, the third largest in the country.</p>

<p>Harvard’s new aid packages, which have been received almost entirely positively, are likely to lead to some unforeseen consequences. If only the richest schools are able to offer these tantalizing scholarships to middle class students, the already hectic and agonizing college admissions process will most likely become all the more competitive. Some students might feel that the only way to make college affordable for their families is to attend one of the very selective private schools that offer middle class scholarships, ramping up the competition to yet unhealthier levels. </p>

<p>Currently, there is discussion in Congress over the alarming and rising costs of college tuition, even relative to inflation. Some have speculated that Harvard’s adjustment in aid policy was made in anticipation of eventual Congressional mandates requiring colleges to spend a portion of their endowments on financial aid programs. But as Congress wavers to support new financial aid policies, in the meantime many of Stanford’s early admits hesitate to commit to Stanford due to financial concerns. Why not change Stanford’s financial aid policy now? </p>

<p>Stanford should be a leader, not a follower, in this growing collegiate trend of financial aid. If the day comes when the top private universities in the United States are effectively free, we should be proud to say that Stanford made sacrifices and shifted budget priorities to make our education as affordable as possible, as soon as it was possible.

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>I think private colleges should spend a % of their endowments on financial aid programs- a mandate should be part of their charter.</p>

<p>I admit we have benefitted from generous financial aid.
We are an anomaly.
Our kids - (not our parents, not us) are first gen college, very bright, and we are willing ( well my H had more control over finances than I), to mortgage our future in order to cover our kids education. Not that I would recommend it, or think that other families in same situation should do so.</p>

<p>However, I bring it up to make the point that even when our EFC was $12,000 at a school that was $43,000---To come up with $12,000 was hard.
We took out PLUS loans, we borrowed from mortgage, D contributed $3,000 from summer earnings. We didn't have a lot of bills, no credit cards, old cars, small old house with now a 30+ yr old roof :p , vacations were camping.
But still $12,000 is relatively doable.
But that also didn't count the amount of self help that was included in the aid package.
Work study- Perkins loans- Stafford loans.
Stafford loans are open to anyone.
Work study is not always open to everyone, but everyone can work while in college & summers.
These parents who don't like the lack of aid, how much did they expect to pay?
How much are they expecting their child to contribute up front?
I hear some say, they don't want their child to have loans because they are going to law or medical school.
Oh. Well.
Guess maybe they have to work for a while.</p>