<p>Lots of things on your return don't mean squat in FA. Business losses, depreciation for two.</p>
<p>I'm not sure that is true at every school particularly HYP. - yeah yeah I know I've already heard the rants that not everybody has a shot at HYP so it only applies to a few but its all I personally care about.</p>
<p>cbs5.com</a> - Liar Loans</p>
<p>Pretty close to a $30,000 income. Pretty close to a $500,000 loan.</p>
<p>"Dennis said, "Some may know. But for the most part I would say the consumer is pretty much left out of the loop."</p>
<p>Out of the loop because the broker often prepares the loan papers without ever telling the buyer their income has been inflated. And buyers may then unknowingly sign a fraudulent income number on their loan.</p>
<p>But if it leads to getting their piece of the American dream, homebuyers must be happy, right?</p>
<p>Not according to Beverly and Dwayne, two Bay Area homeowners.</p>
<p>"Right now I'm living from paycheck to paycheck. I'm struggling with putting gas in my car just to get to work," Beverly said.</p>
<p>Last May, Beverly and Dwayne bought their first home. Their broker assured them they could afford the half-a-million-dollar price tag based on Beverly's income as a social worker. She makes $2,750 a month.</p>
<p>But what they didn't know? To make the deal work, the broker boosted Dwayne's salary to an impressive $8,000 a month.</p>
<p>"I wish I did make $8,000 a month," Dwayne said.</p>
<p>In truth, Dwayne is out of work and only gets a small disability check. Nevertheless, based on their inflated income, they qualified for a mortgage of $3,700 a month. That's almost $1,000 more than Beverly's entire paycheck.</p>
<p>"I didn't find out until the signing," Beverly said. "And I said 'I can't afford to pay that,' and the realtor said, 'Don't worry about it, we're gonna immediately refinance it.' "</p>
<p>Like I said . Lawbreakers. Thieves. Hang them.</p>
<p>What happens in some cases, is that those people have ARM's that have a huge readjustment which they can't handle. These types of loans weren't so uncommon a few years ago when the market was going gangbusters. Now they try to refinance because the rates have blown up and they can't because they don't qualify for the loans under the stricter guidelines now in use.</p>
<p>They didn't break any laws. The lenders however were unscrupulous. I recently read that CFC had given out mortgages without an appraisal. The mortgages were for more than the homes were worth. Now the lenders can't make the payments and they can't refinance for the full amount of the original mortgage because not only wasn't the house worth the amount originally but it has decreased further in value.</p>
<p>"they don't qualify for the loans under the stricter guidelines now in use."</p>
<p>That's entirely the point. They <em>don't</em> <em>qualify</em>. And as post 385 said, it was a few years ago. This is not happening routinely now. Highway robbery is not occurring at some critical rate, all ending up on the doorstep of the esteemed Harvard University. </p>
<p>I really think that some parents on this thread need major, major entitlement reduction surgery, or are living in a parallel universe. (Gee, we jumped from Why Doesn't The Middle Class Get the Same so-called 'breaks' that lucky poor people probably do, to an irrelevant history of liar loans & how 'therefore' such loan customers must be matriculating to HYP with ill-begotten f.a. money, to a critical mass level.)</p>
<p>Truly low-income, truly high-achieving students mostly do not feel 'entitled' to 'free rides' at upper-level U's. They feel (a) lucky to get into any reach school; (b) lucky & blessed if they get enough low-loan aid to actually attend one of said schools. It's a humbling journey, which I've seen them make gratefully, not smugly.</p>
<p>I'm not going to repeat all of my previous points. Everyone pays in some fashion. Those who are supposedly truly middle-class-and-then-some but theoretically are ripping off victimized elite U's (and victimizing you, too, who would prefer, with their same incomes, to have that aid?) -- those people will eat their habits later when they have not saved. It's pretty risky to live that way nowadays with the economy being an unknown. If you're living on credit -- whether in home financing or in consumer debt -- you're engaging in high risk. </p>
<p>I'd even buy the possibility of an occasional fraudulently rec'd aid package, but at the level implied on this thread, justifying such supposed righteous outrage? Anyone who brags about defrauding institutions is NOT clever. ("Loose lips," etc.) If you are so convinced of your accuracy, you can begin documenting, & then turn them in. </p>
<p>This victim trip is such a turn-off.</p>
<p>The best revenge is a life well lived. Raise yourselves, or enjoy your choices on the more elevated level, instead of dwelling on the low-lifes. And really, if they so populate your daily lives, why do you associate with such people? You actually invite them to your parties? Socialize with them? (How do some of you know "so many" of them unless you agree to associate with "lots" of them?)</p>
<p>DocT, by the way, I believed what you wrote in your posts.</p>
<p>Reply to post 361 and 316 - I am the whiner who elicited those responses.</p>
<p>You all could be absolutely right - naturally I have no idea what these people's financial situations really are and what kind of packages their kids were offered. I believe - the people I am speaking of have far less in savings than I do - and they do not have significant debt beyond mortgage. They spend all of their disposable income on things. What savings they have are all in 401k.....so not a factor. They end up looking like they have less - and in fact have so much more. Are they cheating? No...but they certainly worked the system better than I did.</p>
<p>In the meantime, stupid single mom that I am - I squirrel away what I can and learned the hard way that I would have been better off taking my savings and applying it against my mortgage......I did do some shuffling but I always planned on paying for my kids education singlehandedly - I honestly had NO idea how much it really was going to be though. Instead, I listened to the urban legend that the GC preached " as a single parent you are going to do GREAT and get buckets of money thrown at you". Call me stupid (and I am sure you will). A victim? No, I don't think so......but definitely I was naive.</p>
<p>In the meantime, I can't find the exact link but FAFSA does not shelter the same funds for a single parent as they do for a married couple. They shelter less. </p>
<p>Yeah my sons both had very inexpensive options available to them - and they both chose/are choosing the more expensive path. I support them in that. I am doing whatever I can to make it happen for them and will significantly deplete my savings over the next 4 years. My older son tried to stay away from CSS schools because we KNEW that daddy dearest's income would blow him out of the water for financial aid purposes. Younger son - we tossed the dice. Some schools listened to our situation. Some have not. As a single parent, the schools that require CSS can make it very hard for your child to go there. Once again, am I a victim? I don't think so. Just a parent who wants the best for her child and who is currently a little frustrated by the situation we are in.....</p>
<p>My goal is for my kids to get the best education that we can afford and that is available to them - and to come out with a reasonable amount of debt. Both my guys will have the Stafford Loan. They appreciate what I am doing for them and want to take some ownership of their education. </p>
<p>Oh - and by FA - I mean grants. Free money. I am not talking about merit money or loans.</p>
<p>Re Post 389:</p>
<p>What I object to (among other things) is the myopia. Some of you speak as if your individual situations are uniquely worthy or at least more worthy of aid than those of other stiuations (not the liars & braggers & mafia-wannabes). Do you have any idea how much need-based aid is given to SINGLE PARENTS? (No, I thought not.) Somehow you're special because you're a single parent. (Not.)</p>
<p>Ask calmom. She's a single parent, too, & has suffered through ex-'s income, etc. She also has made & is making her choices, as are her children: balancing cost with worth. (Otherwise known as perceived value & <em>chosen</em> value.) To bring up a related point, I know dozens, dozens of CA families who can definitely afford private colleges both in-state & OOS, but who choose UC for relative affordability. Choice, not requirement. Students with great stats, great academic material, even if not HYP certainly other highly regarded <em>private</em> institutions. They tell me that to them, this is about value.</p>
<p>We make our choices in life according to what we value. I'm a single parent, too. I made my choice to value education above all else. (And since it's in my blood, that was probably a smart biological decision.:)) Thus, when public K-12 schools in & around our neighborhood were Unacceptable & Extremely Scary to boot (including to those attending those schools), I opted out. Operative word = Opted. It meant that I did forego vacations, nice clothes, eventually a car for teenagers, updated computers (always obtaining used computers & hand-me-downs, etc.), and all those "normal" taken- for- granted perks of the middle class. We did without. We perceived VALUE in private education. I enrolled my children in mid-level privates, some tuition of which was subsidized, most of it out-of-pocket.</p>
<p>I could have made other choices: I could have moved to a distant suburb or even semi-rural area with a lower COL, lower housing prices, & slightly less scary schools. I chose instead to remain in our house for emotional reasons (i.e., stability for my children), & because of cultural access, & because of transportation economics. All perceived value (& some of it objective value as well).</p>
<p>I don't understand the fixation on the rule-breakers, some of whom are probably exaggeraters, & all of whom collectively may either be punished/caught or later denied, and/or will pay their Karmic Price some day. They cannot be a huge portion of those receiving f.a. from the top schools in the country. No one has presented actual quantifiable evidence of just how supposedly rampant this is, just how supposedly it has affected you personally, etc. It's all unverifiable rumor & gossip, unless your neighbors & those you CHOOSE to associate with have come over to your house or office, shown you their financial records, and side-by-side shown you the f.a. awards on paper, not from their lips.</p>
<p>I know an awful lot of people, and can assume many people on this board as well, who would not have made the choices I made. Yet I'm convinced that from an educational standpoint, I made the right decision.</p>
<p>kitkat, I'm a single parent too. I am well aware that the FAFSA asset protection allowance for a single parent is less than half of the allowance for a married couple.... so there is greater penalty for a single parent to save... but its a small penalty.</p>
<p>As a single parent in my mid-50's, I really don't care if I have to shell out a few more dollars in 2008 for my kid's college; I am far more concerned with what position I will be in financially at age 60 or 65, well past the the time when I am worrying about my kids. So no matter which way I look at it, I am better off if I build a strong platform for my finances. And a formula that only expects me to pay, at most, 5.6% of my assets makes it rather obvious that accumulating assets is the way to go. I mean... remember that old fable about the grasshopper and the ants? I'm not going to envy the hypothetical, same-income no savings family for their slightly better financial aid award because I get the benefit of the other 94% of those assets (plus appreciation)... in the year 2020 I think I am going to be a much happier old lady than the people who are spending as if there is no tomorrow.</p>
<p>Looks as if calmom & I replied almost simultaneously.:)</p>
<p>Geez. I was just venting here. Expressing a little frustration because unlike many of you, my kid is still in a holding pattern, waiting on FA appeal. So this stuff is on my mind 24/7 right now. Once the acceptance is in, its over and done with. But until then, a little anxiety over the situation and frustration over not being able to have a better outcome is hardly a crime, is it?</p>
<p>I am hardly fixated about what other people get or have, and I certainly don't think that I am special or worthy of more aid or any of the other things. My kids are not entitled to an expensive education. I was just trying to explain my circumstances. If you read my posts, I think I have made it pretty clear that I plan on contributing significantly to this son's education, just as I have for my older son.</p>
<p>The posters on CC, esp. on PF, appear to be heavily skewed toward upper-middle incomes, judging by the conversations on PF over the last few years, and esp. on the Cafe. But you don't seem to be complaining about their advantages versus yours (their better options vs. yours), but about people who make statements to you (& who I guess are not on CC) that we should supposedly get worked up about. Even IF I bought this 3rd-hand "information" hook, line, & sinker, it would represent a small fraction of college f.a., & certainly not enough to deny you & your children their earned f.a., or even reduce your award. <em>That's</em> why I think the mention of it is immaterial & not helpful to the discussion.</p>
<p>Many of the rest of us are awaiting final award outcomes, too, & have based admissions decisions on <em>estimated</em> award amounts, yet to be confirmed.</p>
<p>Geez. I was just venting here. Expressing a little frustration because unlike many of you, my kid is still in a holding pattern, waiting on FA appeal.....
And - I was punished for having an ex husband who is affluent but chooses not to participate in his childrens education.</p>
<p>That is frustrating, but I think your frustration is misplaced- I would be more frustrated with your son's dad.</p>
<p>Way more succinct than me, ek. Thanks for that #395. My sentiments exactly.</p>
<p>kitkat, I understand the frustration -- I go through it every year because my daughter's college wants to see my self-employed ex husband's tax returns as well as the CSS statement -- he never files his taxes on time and it is hard to get him to cooperate -- and the college won't write the financial aid award for continuing students until July. If the ex doesn't provide the info, my d. won't get any aid at all -- and since he is self-employed, I don't have a clue from year to year what his AGI will be, nor which of his writeoff's the college might choose to add back in-- plus the college refuses to discuss any of that with me. So basically, if my ex looked like he was making more on paper in a given year, our EFC could spike. </p>
<p>But I would not be in this situation but for the fact that I chose to accept the 5-figure grant that the college offered my daughter in year #1. And so far, even though it is hard to come up with our share (which tends to run about $10 to $12K more than the FAFSA EFC, what with the confounding factor of 2 self-employed parents and my home equity) -- I can't lose sight of the over riding fact that the college grant is bigger still. And my daughter is getting a fantastic education, and working her tail off to take full advantage of what she is offered at an incredible college. </p>
<p>So yes, I'm frustrated. But the grateful part outweighs the frustration part. I can't lose sight of the fact that what is frustrating is that I want someone else to give me money. Since they are doing the giving, as frustrating as it may be, it really is their right to set the rules and the terms on which they will give.</p>
<p>Owning a business does make it hard to plan. My income can vary wildly from year to year. As I mentioned in a previous post, if I had used '06 numbers, things would have been quite different with FA. BUT, I would have been afraid to stretch for a college based on that aid since I might make significantly more in another year. As business owners know, just because income goes up, you don't necessarily have more to spend. Stuff happens. Heck, scholarships tied to certain majors and GPA scare me to death. Too many "what ifs."</p>
<p>"That is frustrating, but I think your frustration is misplaced- I would be more frustrated with your son's dad."</p>
<p>Beyond frustrated.</p>
<p>Wow! I go on a trip and come back to almost 400 threads. A glance through the responses indicate I seem to have hit a few nerves. To those who are in true dire straights who read into my anger some kind of crusade against lower income folks, I apologize for giving that perception. For those who think my rage is mere whining, my late father would have agreed with you. here's where my father would have said to me "Boy, you'd complain if you were hung with a new rope."</p>
<p>Allow me to offer a few clarifications.</p>
<p>1) I am not looking for sympathy or even empathy. Hey, we've been blessed by fairly good health and income for the last 20 years, which has allowed us to save money and live a decent middle class lifestyle, the most important part of which is having our kids grow up well fed, well sheltered and well educated. To those to whom Fate has not been as kind, I offer love and sympathy and I try to do as much as I can materially and politically and spiritually.</p>
<p>2) I am NOT aggrevated because the rich can afford to send their kids anywhere and that with Financial Aid, many poor families can also send their kids to college. I AM aggrevated that the family making the same amount of money as I have over the last 20 years, but living high on the hog, now gets to send their kids to college for far less than I will pay, while I have to pay for it all. It all boils down to that simple fact. And you can all run your numbers, but the bottom line is, if I didn't have any savings, the FAFSA would tell the colleges that I needed financial aid and they'd give it to me. For every person of lesser means that this system helps, there's two more whose bad financial habits are enabled by this system.</p>
<p>3) I DID save a lot of money for my kids' college education. I am happy to spend it on said education, so long as I am getting good value. I just think that it sucks that there are "middle class" folks who have lived like the proverbial grasshopper amidst us ants, but in this fable there is no winter of comeuppance. Instead, the ants are watching their home equity and savings sink like lead weights in large part due to those same grasshoppers taking out risky loans on their overrpiced mcmansions. If life were fair, and believe me, I know that it isn't, then the grasshoppers would not have MORE college choices for their kids than I do, they would have LESS.</p>
<p>3) I am an academic. My school does not offer tuition exchange nor does it participate in any program like that. That's a sore subject for this state's faculty, and best left to another thread on another site. I knew this from the get go, so this is really not an issue for THIS particular thread. </p>
<p>4) My heart goes out to the many of you from REAL bad situations out there. I empathisize and sympathize. As I stated in 1) above, I am grateful that I am able to afford college of any type for my children. I am just really ****ed off about the whole situation wherein the folks with the best accountants and lawyers and who spend instead of save get more financial aid than those of us who save our money. In isn't "just". And it is one of the main reasons why tuition is so expensive, why health care is so expensive, and why the mortgage crisis has ripped the guts out of the economy. People make lifestyle choices. The Constitution and our capitalist economy allow them to do so, thank God. But who is paying for their unwise choices? All the rest of us, from the upper ends of the middle class down to the poorest. And not just in Financial Aid for college, but in the price of gas at the pump and the price of bread at the store. </p>
<p>5) Part of my initial post was sarcasm, especially the sections where I suggest blowing my savings so I can qualify for aid. I am surprised that so many people took that seriously enough to comment at length about it. I should have suggested donating it to charity instead.
Regarding my apparent disdain for state universities, I must insist that I believe that state schools offer great educations at, considering the alternatives, reasonable prices. I went to State U for grad school and loved it and am doing just fine. More than fine, as many of you have pointed out. But there's no denying that so called "elite" schools do open some unique doors and provide access to higher paying jobs. </p>
<p>6) Since I'm so bitter, I guess I'll just go pray quietly or thumb through a gun catalogue now. (That's more sarcasm.)</p>
<p>7) I love you all, I really do. Even those of you who opened up your EFC statement of $400 while driving your six-month old super-sized SUV from your 6000 sf house to go pick up your kids at private schools. </p>
<p>8)Aren't our kids ALL great?! I know that 95% of the ones I see in the classroom really are pretty cool in some way. I suppose that's why, despite my occasional bitterness (ref #6 above), I am very optimistic about the future, because the generation in college has a lot of energy and ability and if there is anyone who can figure out how to fix all the mess out there, it is them.</p>