The Middle Class Get Screwed...again

Parents Forum
401

<p>KitKat, maybe it would help your frustration if you looked at your own situation from someone else's perspective. Single mom, identical financial situation to yours with one exception- kids dad is dead, not just uncooperative. I bet she'd be frustrated to learn that your kid is getting the same award that hers is- even though one of the kids has a father who has actual earned income and assets, at least some of which ought to be available to pay tuition, no???</p>

<p>A neighbor of mine is a family lawyer and this time of year she comes home with the saddest stories- the millionaire dad in real estate development who moved everything (both personal assets and business assets) into a complicated off-shore trust so that nothing could be liquidated and nothing shows up as 1099 income; kid is taking a face-saving gap year in order to apply to local schools so he can commute from home and save $ since the court mandated tuition payments from dad won't be coming anytime soon (trust dissolves in ten years-- must be very reassuring to an 18 year old.) The mom was a little shocked that the pricey schools her kid applied to weren't terribly sympathetic to her tale of woe when she appealed their award. Try listing a non-custodial spouse with a Park Avenue address on a FA form and getting a college employee who probably makes $60K a year to get all riled up about how poor you are!</p>

<p>I'm just pointing out that you alone know the reality of your situation; to anyone else, there were probably myriad opportunities along the way to get a better grip on college costs and act accordingly. I'm not being judgemental- but your reality, as lousy as it may be for you, could well be a huge step up in situtation for someone else.</p>

<p>I agree with Epiphany. There are always a few lunatics and cheats and scoundrels in any situation, but nobody has brought evidence that the entire system is rife with corrupt parents buying BMW's and flat screen TV's to haul off to college while the rest of us eat ramen noodles so our kids can afford their lab fees next semester.</p>

<p>I also agree that there is something akin to the teenage boy bragging about his sexual exploits in the FA world. We live in a winner take all society and therefore there are now two kinds of kids in America- Gifted or LD/Challenged. (If you doubt me, take a look at your districts special ed budget). There are two ways to go to college-- the "Princeton thinks my kid is so special he's getting a lacrosse scholarship" way, and the "only a chump pays full freight so my kid got a merit award to JHU which is so lucrative it will pay off my mortgage next year". Nobody likes to talk about an award which is fair but will require some trade-offs and sacrifices at home (take on more overtime; accept that promotion at work even though it will mean no time for yoga class; defer maintenance on the house and keep the junker car).</p>

402

<p>
[quote]
I AM aggrevated that the family making the same amount of money as I have over the last 20 years, but living high on the hog, now gets to send their kids to college for far less than I will pay, while I have to pay for it all. It all boils down to that simple fact.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>While you're thumbing through that gun catalog and in prayer, lol, some words to meditate on.</p>

<p>Excerpts from the Deserata;</p>

<p>..."If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself"...
..."And whether or not it is clear to you, the universe is unfolding as it should"...</p>

<p>There's alot of great wisdom in between and after those excerpts. Those that are particularly vexed by their situation, may consider reading the Desiderata in it's entirety. It may quelch your frustrations.</p>

403

<p>Doktorvater- you couldn't have said it better! (except for #3).</p>

<p>Blossom - I have heard some unbelieveably sad and horrible stories in CC and every day I am so thankful for the blessings that I have and that my children have. We ARE very fortunate. #1 son is at an excellent very highly ranked school. #2 is down to his last two choices - both of them are perfect in every way for him. They are both healthy, happy and I make a decent living and we have a pretty good life. Being who I am, I doubt I would have done much differently. We have resources to use for college and ex-hubby not helping isn't the end of the world. Life IS good.</p>

<p>I agree about the "sexual exploits". I have definitely heard things that I knew were totally BS from friends of mine about the athletic scholarships that their kids received from D-3 schools, to "full rides" offered by schools that don't really OFFER full rides. MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS!</p>

<p>And - fair offers? Lots of them. We did not request re-evaluation for second choice school. I cried with relief when I saw the number. It is doable for me and won't saddle the two of us with burdensome debt. Is the number anywhere near my EFC - um no the amount that I will end up paying is double EFC - but I am good with that - I can make it work. No need to beg for more money. </p>

<p>So far, number one choice so far is inflexible. Is that fair? In the grand scheme of things, they make their policies pretty clear, so big picture - they are "fair". But that doesnt mean I have to like it or ask them to consider my point of view. And if they don't, ok so we go to the other school. And he will be fine.</p>

404

<p>"KitKat, maybe it would help your frustration if you looked at your own situation from someone else's perspective. "
Come on now. There is always someone worse off. There's nothing wrong with feeling frustrated or put-upon. Heck, certain days of the month EVERYTHING upsets me. It's the actions that one takes, not the frustration expressed on a message board, that count. With a few exceptions, most of the posters on the two relevant threads are just blowing off steam and shouldn't be demonized for it.</p>

405

<p>Zooser, did I demonize KitKat? I don't think that suggesting that she look at how her situation appears to someone else is either belittling her feelings or demonzing her, and her thoughtful, reasonable response to my post suggests that she took it in the spirit in which is was offered.</p>

<p>Most of us develop our sense of context on college from our co-workers, our neighbors, our siblings, our GC's. I have found that it really helps my perspective when I hear from people who live elsewhere, whose kids are just as exceptional as mine (truthfully... more so!) and how they deal with all the challenges of this crazy process. Apologize if my lack of empathy has offended you and I'm glad that KitKat seems to have accepted my demonizing with good grace and kind spirit.</p>

<p>Agree with KitKat that if we lined up every tennis player whose dad claimed he or she had gotten a full ride tennis scholarship from HYP we'd have a chain which reached from Seattle to St. Louis.</p>

406

<p>Doktorvator -- You seem to have missed all the pertinent parts of the thread that question how many of those "living high on the hog" people actually exist outside of (sub)urban myth; how many of them actually get grants and not just more loans to put them even more into debt; and how much better off you still are with your assets.
Sheesh. I seem to keep repeating myself, and many of you keep answering me with more unsubstantiated, anecdotal evidence about all these SUV-driving, debt-ridden people that are what . . . not paying for college at all?? C'mon.</p>

407

<p>Or am I simply not clear about the level of income to which you are referring. Is it not true that anyone with household income over $120,000 gets hardly any aid, no matter the size of assets?</p>

408

<p>A college FA office ran my numbers for me with minimal assets and the EFC was cut in half. (By the way, that was what sparked my OP)</p>

<p>I have also heard that accountants are making a cottage industry out of hiding assets and income from schools and the gov't as part of FAFSA preparation, in the same ways we all try to pay as little Income Tax as possible. </p>

<p>I suppose there is no way to differentiate between parents who are profligates and parents who suffer financial/personal catastrophes. Both drain savings. The system is there to help the latter. Nothing we can do about the former. </p>

<p>I'm switching to decaf now. Thanks to everyone for both the words of wisdom and words of wiseacre.</p>

409

<p>All I can say is that some of us can sleep well at night knowing we have not milked and bilked the system. Frustrated-Yes, Can we change the system-who knows. I hope all students who have received money from schools are generous and donate back when they graduate.</p>

410

<p>*I have also heard that accountants are making a cottage industry out of hiding assets and income from schools and the gov't as part of FAFSA preparation, *
who do you hear this from?
Schools routinely double check 1040 forms. To cheat on your taxes can be a felony- do you really think that this is a cottage industry- for whom?</p>

<p>*in the same ways we all try to pay as little Income Tax as possible. *</p>

<p>Really? The place to limit your taxes is at the voter booth, when it comes time to sit down and do them, I just try to make sure it is as accurate as possible- I think most people are the same.</p>

411

<p>You can't legally hide income as stated above to receive financial aid from schools, many of which want every detail of your financial situation.</p>

<p>Until recently, I never ventured into this forum - wow its really entertaining!!</p>

412

<p>Wow. I really AM a chump. I don't mind paying for DD's education because that's what we saved the money for, and when it comes to taxes, I do want to pay my fair share (as EK said, as accurately as possible.)</p>

413

<p>Dokvat, you can always cheat. Yes, there are folks out there hiding income, filing bad returns. You can do things illegally and usually get some windfall that way, and you might not even get caught. I have no idea how many out there are cheating, lying, stealing. But that's a whole different world to enter.</p>

<p>THere are also many out there who are heavily supported by family. I was floored myself when a family we know who has sent two kids to our expensive private school, lives in a million dollar house (I exaggerate not), and drives luxury cars. They go on trips that make us drool in envy. ANd they are getting financial aid!!!!!</p>

<p>I think grandparents are subsidizing the family heavily. And having seen the old folks, it looks reasonable. Unfair? Of course. But that's the way it is. If a family has low income, no assets, spends of the income and lives in a house owned by family,paying nominal rent and is gifted all sorts of things, it is likely to get aid for the kids from certain schools. They don't have to worry about retirement or emergencies as many of us do, since they have that back up. Strictly speaking, they are supposed to report that source in that catch all question in PROFILE, but most do not and there is no catching them. But that's the way it goes for everything else in life too. Where you catch me really biting my lips is when it hits things like quality of health care when lives may well be at stake. College is way down there in the importance pyramid when you consider so many other crucial quality of life things affected by money.</p>

414

<p>It is ridiculous that the FAFSA formula counts assets that middle-class people save for a rainy day or for a down payment on a house against them. The people with the same income who blow their money on Lexuses and extravagant European vacations have to pay much less. That's the main injustice, and it hurts even those who go to State U.</p>

415

<p>maybe im missing something, but why should schools be trying to help or be fair to parents? isnt it their (more or less) adult children schools are trying to enroll, retain, educate and ultimately graduate? </p>

<p>in other words, does it really make sense to look at this as a question of fairness for parents? or does it make significantly more sense to look at it as a question of fairness for students, who rarely have much input in their parents spending and saving habits?</p>

<p>yes, the parents typically foot the bill. i get that. and undergraduate students under the age of 24 are considered dependent for financial aid purposes, meaning parents are expected to foot the bill. i get that, too.</p>

<p>but why is it fair for students to be awarded aid based on fairness to their parents? in a fair world, why should the adult student whose parents were willing or able to save be able to attend a school at the expense of the adult student whose parents wouldnt or couldnt? </p>

<p>is that really a 'fairer' system? or is it simply one that would further benefit students who happened to be from affluent families?</p>

<p>edit: yes, i do understand the frustration that the system causes parents who do the right thing and save. just consider the alternative. from a students perspective.</p>

416

<p>Doktorvator said:
"I have also heard that accountants are making a cottage industry out of hiding assets and income from schools and the gov't as part of FAFSA preparation, in the same ways we all try to pay as little Income Tax as possible.</p>

<p>I suppose there is no way to differentiate between parents who are profligates and parents who suffer financial/personal catastrophes. Both drain savings. The system is there to help the latter. Nothing we can do about the former."</p>

<p>One of my daughter's best friends and her parents did exactly this... and they were CAUGHT by her #1 choice school!!! All the offered need based and merit aid was rescinded and she can no longer go there.</p>

<p>Although I wish she were going to her #1, I have to admit that I was pleased that they didn't get away with it.</p>

417

<p>erica, I think your post makes a lot of sense, and I thank you for saying it. More importantly I think you have in fact nailed a key component in the philosophy about f.a., on the part of colleges. It's not as if the parents have no culpability for spending habits (see post 416), but the thrust is that there is an expectation that, until proven otherwise, most lower income people do not become that way artificially or by design.</p>

418

<p>


The exact same thing happened with both of my kids -- each had an award from #1 school that was unworkable, and an award from #2 that was workable. Like you we end up paying about double the EFC -- and I think, like you, that is directly attributable to a non-contributing noncustodial parent whose income gets factored in. It frustrates me but at the same time I understand that is a daddy problem more than a college problem. </p>

<p>But I really don't want to whine over a 2nd choice. My kids were lucky to be admitted to their top choices, even if they couldn't afford it -- many kids weren't. My kids were lucky to be admitted to great 2nd choice (and 3rd & 4th & 5th choice, etc.) colleges, most of which offered workable awards, some better than others. </p>

<p>And in the end... I don't think it really matters. My son ended up dropping out of his 2nd choice after 2 years, and yes... a little part of me will always wonder whether he would have done better at #1..... but I know deep down that it is the student and not the college that makes the difference. </p>

<p>I'd also note that only the very top schools offer guaranteed, generous need based aid. No matter what the parent's finances, it is really tough for any kid to get admitted to Princeton or Harvard (and I guarantee you that no financial-aid getting student is being admitted on the strength of their daddy's 6 or 7 figure contributions to the school - no special "tip" factors for financial aid seekers). So parents can maneuver all they want with the money -- but they can't get a fat envelope. Farther down the totem pole of selectivity, if the college gives money, there's usually a merit component, whether or not it is labeled as such. So we might as well rage about the unfairness of some kid getting a scholarship our kid didn't qualify for because the other kid had extensive test prep we couldn't afford.</p>

<p>We all make our own opportunities. Finances are part of the picture, and anyone who spends wantonly on the assumption that they will reap the benefits later on in financial aid is simply being reckless. They may get lucky but they are just as likely to find themselves caught short without options because they don't have the savings. I mean.. if my neighbor spends $50 a week on lottery tickets and I never buy any, and then one day my neighbor gets lucky... what's to resent? Of course I can't win the lottery if I don't ever enter it, but there's also a good reason why I choose not to gamble, even though every once in a while the gamblers get a lucky break.</p>

419

<p>


Not so much. I know too many Ivy grads with mediocre jobs to buy into that. With hindsight, seeing my own kids, I also know that it is a matter of the student's ability to recognize opportunities and take initiative, wherever the student is, that counts. My d is at an Ivy but the best opportunities she has had in terms of "connections" are self-created or serendipitous - and my son is graduating from a state college and has also made some extraordinary connections. I know many students who did very well for themselves from lower tier colleges & universities. </p>

<p>I think what happens is the elite schools are very good at weeding out all but the most capable of students, so they tend to be filled with the type of students who would do well for themselves in any environment. Many, of course, are students who are already part of the landed elite -- the doors that are opened for them are not from who they met in college but the connections their parents had before they ever started.</p>

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<p>I did not read all of the posts. What is the working definition of 'middle class' in the context of this thread? what is the household agi range, eg?</p>