The middle class squeeze...

Paying for College
1

<p>I know this prbly has been posted before, and I know I'm ranting, but this is ridiculous. Colleges expect the truly middle class families to put forth tens of thousands of dollars for an education? I know poor people have it tough, but damn, the middle class gets squeezed like a fat kid through a narrow door. </p>

<p>Let's say a MC family makes b/w 80K and 110K, making them middle class dpending on location. After taxes 75K, after mortage, bills, and all that crap, MC families just get by. And then an MC kid gets stuck with a bill for 30 thousand for the education that will supposedly help him in life. ***! I thought the MC was the quinessential symbol of America; instead, the rich get richer while the MC/poor really get poor.</p>

2

<p>Being a family in the squeeze, I know that it is a tough situation. Those with the money do not have to worry about cost and paying college bills. Those who are truly needy and whose kids need a full ride, have little choice either. IF the kid is accepted to a 100% need met school, they can take that, but if not, they simply do not have any extra to pay, and often do not have the income or credit to even borrow. So they just don't go, or the kid goes locally, part time and works as long as he can sustain the interest and that pace.</p>

<p>This middle group has many more choices. They are just not enjoyable choices to make. In fact, they hurt like the dickens. All that work to get that house in a good neighborhood, and now you have to decide if you should sell it and buy something comparable to what families who would qualify for financial aid would be living in. But you do have those choices over that family who is already there in the lousy neighborhood, not so great house who has no where to move down. Yeah, you need those safe, reliable cars. You think most of those families who qualify for full aid have that luxery? We feel entitled to the upgrades we have earned with our hard work and savings and are outraged when we are told what we have to do to be on level with the guy getting the full aid. And that is who we usually eye with jealous eyes, as we seem to understand that the rich guy is going to be able to pay for all of this just because of his economic category. We also can look jealously at those who have family to help out and other private sources of income that bring their official financial statements down to the level of getting financial aid, even as they enjoy the amenities we have.<br>
One thing I have noticed is that there is not a stark black line dividing the rich and middle class. There are families that are in the "rich" classification, that cannot pay private college costs without giving up something they hold pretty dear and feel that they have earned. They are no more enamoured about giving up their home they love for a house where YOU may be living in order to pay the college bills. Their pride and joy may be that expensive car, making it worthwhile doing a job that may be difficult, tedious and even hated. The idea of trading it in for a cheapie may well gall them. And the wife who has not scrubbed th toilets and the floors for 20 years, is not going to give up the household help without feeling it, believe me. IT hurts big time to move down. But it is tougher to have to live down there all along.</p>

3

<p>An education at an expensive school, where the student is in the mainstream talent-wise, immediately after graduating from high school, is a luxury item. Just like that BMW or holiday cruise trip. Middle-class families will have to either save ahead, or make sacrifices, or find a cheaper way. What else is new?</p>

4

<p>I know how you feel. I'm middle class...we have one house, my dad's work truck, my mom's car, my car (which I bought myself). We don't have much. But our public school is terrible, so next year both my brothers will be at private high school at 5-7K each (I used to get scholarships to go there, my brothers may only get finanical aide). Also, my dad needs to finish college because hes a vocational teacher and needs to graduate in a certain period of time...and my mom is going back to know to get another degree so that she can make a little bit more money.</p>

<p>3 in college, 2 in private high school? Greatttt. I'm going to have 120K+ in loans.</p>

5

<p>I think it just depends. An MC family earning b/w 80-110k should have a significant amount left over for savings. In addition, the child shouldn't have a 30k a year bill for an undergraduate degree that is going to earn less than 40k a year. Its just common sense. I have relatives in the area that you're speaking of with kids going through premed at state colleges where tuition is less than 3k per year. All 4 kids are premed at csus with one exception attending a uc institution where tuition is about 7k per year. Total cost per year in tuition for 4 children is 16k per year. So you can argue that the rich get richer and the mc/lc get poorer but the fact of the matter is that the rich care more about a dollar than the mc/lc. Because if the mc/lc cared more about the dollar, they'd go to the cheaper school versus the 30k a year tuition school.</p>

<p>People don't get rich by throwing money away. They get to that level by saving, and getting by with less until the money they have eventually works for them. It is said that only 5 percent of the top 5 percent of income earners live the kind of celebrity rich lifestyle we see in the media. I guess it is something to think about when purchasing a bottle of cola. Do you need brand cola when generic almost tastes the same?</p>

6

<p>"People don't get rich by throwing money away. They get to that level by saving, and getting by with less until the money they have eventually works for them. It is said that only 5 percent of the top 5 percent of income earners live the kind of celebrity rich lifestyle we see in the media. I guess it is something to think about when purchasing a bottle of cola. Do you need brand cola when generic almost tastes the same?"</p>

<p>Thank you for teaching me about the amazingness of rich people. I should mention this to my dad, he has been throwing away lots of money. Maybe now we can be rich! I did not realize the quality of schools could be equated to the differences between cola brands.</p>

<p>Now I am not saying being MC is "tough" or giving a sob story. I don't get how FA seems so "all or nothing." It's easy for the rich to pay, the poor get lots of aid. It just seems like the MC gets squeezed out (and are not beneficiary of the advantages that those applicants get).</p>

7

<p>Just so you know, the median income for all households in the US is $46,326. </p>

<p>But even at higher income levels, yeah, the middle class is about to vanish.</p>

<p>Just wait until all the "middle class" kids have to pay back the debt (and interest) for the war in Iraq! :eek:</p>

8

<p>For all the problems with financing a college education on a middle-class income, it's hard to think of another "product" where:</p>

<pre><code>--the price everyone pays is so heavily subsidized
--the government provides tax breaks and tax shelters for people to save in order to buy the product
--the price charged by many sellers is adjusted according to one's ability to pay
--some talented people don't have to pay anything at all, even if they can afford it
--you're virtually guaranteed a big return on your investment by buying the product
--if you shop around, you can find some amazing values that are just as good as the prestige brands
--most people, through a combination of saving, borrowing, and perhaps making do with a second-choice product for a couple of years can afford it
</code></pre>

<p>It's certainly possible, given all of the above, for a middle-class student to get an outstanding education without assuming 30K in loan debt.</p>

9

<p>"For all the problems with financing a college education on a middle-class income, it's hard to think of another "product" where:"</p>

<p>"An education at an expensive school, where the student is in the mainstream talent-wise, immediately after graduating from high school, is a luxury item. Just like that BMW or holiday cruise trip. Middle-class families will have to either save ahead, or make sacrifices, or find a cheaper way. What else is new?"</p>

<p>A difference between "luxury" products and "luxury" colleges is that BMW doesn't say everyone can afford a BMW, whereas many colleges do. </p>

<p>"--the price charged by many sellers is adjusted according to one's ability to pay"</p>

<p>I don't think the consumer gets to truly determine their ability to pay. Many private colleges are price searchers. </p>

<p>"It's certainly possible, given all of the above, for a middle-class student to get an outstanding education without assuming 30K in loan debt."</p>

<p>Yes, agreed 100%. But if outstanding education means top school (which it does for many goals/careers), then it is possible to accumulate a poolaod of debt. Probable in fact.</p>

<p>And colleges are not homogenous products, so some economic theories about perfect competition ain't really working. And I very much understand that colleges are businesses with a product to sell. But when a certain college uses "I would found an institution where any person can find instruction in any study" as thier motto, then that is false advertising.</p>

<p>And yes, I undertand that it is very much possible to find a way to get an education through planning, etc. But the middle class gets it the worst when it comes to paying for education; mc students and families get squeezed like a carton of Tropicana. Why, when they make up the majority, I do not understand. </p>

<p>Supposedly the price discrmination used by many colleges is effective, yet many are saying the MC should look for substitute products! Maybe I should find my economics books, b/c that really doesn't make much sense.</p>

10

<p>There is not enough money to go around is the problem. It is a myth that "poor" kids have an easy ride to go to college. Though the FAFSA may come out zero for families below a certain financial threshhold, it does not mean that full rides are going to popping out everywhere. Unless the student has the stats for a selective school that guarantees full need, the student is likely to be gapped or given a loan heavy package. For families in the low income category, coming up with even a small amount of money can be problematic, since many are not making ends meet as it is. </p>

<p>It is possible for a middle class or even a lower income student to get an outstanding education without assuming huge debt, but it is a lot more challenging. If the kid has certain needs or would do better in certain environments, not addressing some of those issues can reduce chances of success in getting through college. For some kids, commuting is a difficult thing--if the local state, or community college is not accessible from home with public transportation. Buying a car is an expensive proposition. The student will likely have to juggle work with school, often heavy hours to meet expenses. </p>

<p>As Dt123 indicated, college education is like anything else in this country in terms of who can afford what. If you have the money you have more choices in nearly anything, including colleges.</p>

11

<p>And Karl Marks, I do not agree that "the middle class gets it the worst when it comes to paing for education". The lower income families have it the worst. They have less they can give up to come up with the money. And most of them are not going to be getting full rides or substantial grants.</p>

12

<p>weenie wrote: Just so you know, the median income for all households in the US is $46,326. </p>

<p>Note that this median income includes singles in their 20s and all sorts of folks without families. The median income for families is higher.</p>

13

<p>"Now I am not saying being MC is "tough" or giving a sob story. I don't get how FA seems so "all or nothing." It's easy for the rich to pay, the poor get lots of aid. "</p>

<p>Be grateful for what you have. The poor do not get lots of aid. To go to college, most poor students are having to work as many as 30 hours a week and take out very large loans. They also are going to places like community colleges and third tier publics because either that's all they can afford or because those are the only places that they could be accepted to due to the lousy educations that they got at their neighborhood schools.</p>

<p>What you call having little -- a house, separate cars for both parents and for the student -- would be considered having a lot for most poor students who are applying to college. Most are being raised by either a grandparent ro a single parent. Their family doesn't own its' home. They may not have any cars at all in the family. The student probably doesn't have his/her own bedroom or computer, and may be sharing a bed with a sibling.</p>

<p>So -- before you start complaining again-- be thankful for your many blessings. You have far more options than do poor students.</p>

<p>While some colleges like Harvard and Princeton provide particularly generous financial aid to very low income students, most low income students have no chance at going to such colleges, no matter how smart they are. Why? The horrible public schools that the students attended didn't provide a good enough education for the students to get the board scores that they would need to get into such colleges.</p>

<p>BTW: I am middle income. S will probably qualify for little or no financial aid, and will probably go to an in-state public unless he gets substantial merit aid that would allow him to an out of state private university that interests him. Still, we feel fortunate. We no more envy the people who can easily afford to send their kids to private colleges than we envy people who drive around in Jaguars. We're just glad that we have the resources to fairly easily send our S to a four-year college, even if will not be one of the country's most competitive or a college that would have been his first choice if money were no object. We know there are many people -- including the majority of poor people -- who would feel blessed if they had our options.</p>

14

<p>What is middle class?</p>

<p>Median income for a family of four in the U.S. is $65,093. This varies a good deal by state -- it's about 59,600 in my state (Maine), and just a bit south in Massachusetts, about $82,500. [See chart at <a href="http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/4person.html%5D%5B/url"&gt;http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/4person.html][/url&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/p>

<p>I don't know how much college financial aid calculators take this into account.</p>

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<p>momfromme, I see 57000 for the median income for Massachusetts.</p>

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<p>DocT - I don't quite understand why the link, as posted, doesn't take you to the chart I found by googling "median income family," but if you google the same, go to the top result in the list and you'll find the chart I used (with the numbers I posted).</p>

<p>Or you can use this link. It seems to work better and it's for more complex data -- different size families in each state. <a href="http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/medincsizeandstate.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/medincsizeandstate.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

17

<p>"Thank you for teaching me about the amazingness of rich people. I should mention this to my dad, he has been throwing away lots of money. Maybe now we can be rich! I did not realize the quality of schools could be equated to the differences between cola brands.</p>

<p>Now I am not saying being MC is "tough" or giving a sob story. I don't get how FA seems so "all or nothing." It's easy for the rich to pay, the poor get lots of aid. It just seems like the MC gets squeezed out (and are not beneficiary of the advantages that those applicants get)."</p>

<p>I can tell by your sarcasm that it still hasn't gotten to you. Prestige is eating you up. Prestigious schools aren't everything. A job only takes a person so far. Owning a company takes a person even further. Ask yourself, do you need a degree to start a company?</p>

<p>Yeah its easy for the wealthy to pay for college. Most of the time they do. On rare ocassions, they don't. But can you really blame them? They researched, or paid someone to research methods to get through the system and acquire federal aid. Essentially, they worked for the money that you didn't. Now is it fair to receive aid because someone else worked harder than you? I don't understand why there isn't a state college where you can get an equivalent undergraduate degree, make a competitive salary, and pay your own way through graduate school at an HYPS institution.</p>

<p>To be quite honest, I don't understand why some families(of four) are spending more than 60k per year. Even if you're earning more than 100k per year.</p>

<p>I'm just giving my two cents. You're the one that came on here complaining that the MC are getting squeezed out of the system when the lc/uc are reaping all the benefits. You have to take advantage of what's infront of you. I'm seriously assuming but I believe that your whole life was sheltered, almost equivalent to an upperclass child. Your post shows no sign of a plan development to beat the obstacles infront of you.</p>

<p>My parents aren't paying for my college education. No one is. I have to pay for it myself. My buddy graduated from stanford/usc and tells me to go to an ivy. I sit and wonder how the hell I am going to afford such a thing myself. So I sat down and figured that many state colleges send students to ivies for grad school. And with an undergrad degree earning nearly 40-50k per year, i'd be ok working fulltime, going to school fulltime for two years before getting a serious salary bump. You may not get an easy ride like an upperclass child but you might end up in the same place.</p>

18

<p>"Prestige is eating you up."</p>

<p>How? I'd rather go to my state school b/c of the money, since I know I prbly can't afford ivies, and I'm not getting eaten up by it.</p>

<p>"I'm seriously assuming but I believe that your whole life was sheltered, almost equivalent to an upperclass child. Your post shows no sign of a plan development to beat the obstacles infront of you."</p>

<p>That's a nice assumption. I am an immigrant to this country, and have had to move a lot and live in ****ty neighborhoods while my parents were working/going to school at the same time. And yes, I have a job. And good thing you "analyzed" my post to learn more about me. </p>

<p>"Now is it fair to receive aid because someone else worked harder than you?"</p>

<p>That is the most ******** I have ever heard.</p>

<p>This thread turned into what I though it would. People telling me I'm some spoiled brat who should appreciate w/e opportunities come. I want to know why the MC gets squeezed out, b/c they do.</p>

<p>"I don't understand why there isn't a state college where you can get an equivalent undergraduate degree, make a competitive salary, and pay your own way through graduate school at an HYPS institution."</p>

<p>Agreed 100%. Maybe that's why I am "complaining." </p>

<p><a href="http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/88386.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/88386.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Even UC Berkeley is expensive as heck. Tuition at the publics is skyrocketing as well. And many of us a don't have access to decent public schools (for in state tuition).</p>

<p>"My parents aren't paying for my college education. No one is. I have to pay for it myself. My buddy graduated from stanford/usc and tells me to go to an ivy. I sit and wonder how the hell I am going to afford such a thing myself. So I sat down and figured that many state colleges send students to ivies for grad school. And with an undergrad degree earning nearly 40-50k per year, i'd be ok working fulltime, going to school fulltime for two years before getting a serious salary bump. You may not get an easy ride like an upperclass child but you might end up in the same place."</p>

<p>Yes there are options, and I am not naive as to what I have to do. But your post indcates that MC's options are often severely limited. Is that right? I guess I should bend over and say so.</p>

19

<p>Berkeley tuition/fees are about $6600 per year (excludes health insurance). That seems like a screaming deal for a world class education to me. The rest of the costs are room/board, books, and miscellaneous expenses. For someone living on the cheap, the an in-state public education can be had for a very reasonable cost. Tuition is up, yeah, but still quite reasonable when compared with the privates.</p>

<p>I agree, though, that generally the middle and upper middle class gets squeezed, as the poor get generous financial aid offers, and the wealthy can afford to pay full college costs. I've found, though, that a "middle class" family making 50K to 80K or so can still expect to get substantial financial aid if they get their finances in order and plan ahead before filing out the FAFSA and Profile.</p>

20

<p>" agree, though, that generally the middle and upper middle class gets squeezed, as the poor get generous financial aid offers, "</p>

<p>This is simply untrue. Virtually the only places where the poor get generous financial aid offers are from the country's top colleges, and most of the poor students don't qualify for such colleges because their crappy public schools didn't allow them to take the courses that would gain them the kind of scores and courseloads to enter top colleges. Also, their GCs are usually not good at helping them get into top colleges because those GCs have to spend lots of time with students who have major family crises or are having problems simply graduating from high school.</p>

<p>Also, the public colleges that many CC members look down on because the CC members think they themselves deserve better are also not good deals for poor students because public colleges usually have bad financial aid. In state 4-year public universities that are affordable, even cheap, for middle class families are way out of reach for poor students, who may also have to provide their parents and siblings with monetary help.</p>

<p>I'm a middle class person who also has taught poor students who were struggling to attend a third tier public university. Certainly, it would be a stretch for my family to afford to send our kids to many private universities, but I would never envy poor students because I know that my family has many advantages that they don't. That includes affordable college options.</p>