<p>Humans by nature kill. If you look at it that way then every religion has killed poeple. But theres a difference between killing so that everyone converts to your religion and you being a certain religion and killing people. Conquests of the spanish to the Americas included mass killings, and they also happened to be christian. But they didn’t do it becaue they were christian, christianity didn’t make them do it. Islam on the other hand is completely opposite, they weren’t seeking to colonize and take more land, their main goal was to convert people to Islam at the time.
Your argument contains a logical fallacies: the straw man argument and a hasty generalization.</p>
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</p>
<p>WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!</p>
<p>I have seen a LOT of uniformed and ignorant statements in my years on CC, but this one is pretty close to taking the cake. </p>
<p>Christians have gone all over the world and killed in the name of God. Millions of Native Americans died because they wouldn’t convert to Christianity. Long after Christians had control of the land, they continued to kill Native Americans who wouldn’t convert to Christianity. Evangelists have gone all over the world for over a thousand years and killed people who wouldn’t convert to Christianity.</p>
<p>I am of Jewish and gypsy decent. I don’t even want to think about how many people in my family tree died because they wouldn’t convert to Christianity.</p>
<p>^The only thing to watch out for, romangypsey, is that yes many indigenous peoples were killed by the Conquistadors. But, the Aztecs, for example, were also killing many of their own people in human sacrifice. Would you have let them? Also, go look up the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Where does it say anything about killing others in the name of God? When Christians did that, they were NOT FOLLOWING CHRISTIAN TEACHINGS. When Muslims did it / do it, they ARE FOLLOWING SHARIA LAW. The caps are for emphasis, not anger or disrespect. And, no offense, the past is the past. The Church (since it’s too hard to speak for the thousands of other Christian faiths I’ll speak for only the Catholics) has profusely and repeatedly apologized, something most people like to ignore. I’m deeply sorry and ashamed that any Catholics / other Christians may have killed your ancestors. Can I change the facts? No. Can I tell you that Christianity does not teach that? Yes. Take that as you will. </p>
<p>Let’s stay away from Islam vs. Christianity arguments here. That’s not at all the issue. </p>
<p>That aside, konig you should see some of my other posts. I agree with you in that it is most likely not a terrorist breeding ground, but the perception propagated by the media is that it is, and therefore out of respect they should move the center a few blocks farther away. They have a right to build, but should they build it there?</p>
<p>i’m not sure but, wasn’t the mosque already there. wasn’t it one of the buildings destroyed in 9/11
aren’t they just rebuilding.</p>
<p>^interesting thought nil. If it’s true then that could change some aspects of the situation, but not that much IMHO.</p>
<p>@nil-
No. It used to be a Burlington Coat Factory.</p>
<p>^that clears up that then.</p>
<p>@Circular-
Way to change your comment. :rolleyes: </p>
<p>Let me say this slowly.</p>
<p>Christians… killed… in… the… name… of… God/Jesus. They… killed… millions… from… following… the… Bible. Whether… you… like… it… or… not… they… DID. </p>
<p>Islamic extremists killed out of a perverse form of religion. Same as Christians did.</p>
<p>And you’re right. It is history. Just as 9/11 is history. </p>
<p>I am very well acquainted with the Catholic Church so don’t tell me to go look it up. I have been through Baptism, First Confession, First Communion, Confirmation, and even Last Rites. Don’t tell me what I do and do not know about the Catholic Church. </p>
<p>I can also tell you that I am very well acquainted with Islam. I can also tell you that if we were to take EITHER religion/book literally then MANY more people would be damned/killed by the Bible and Christianity than by Islam.</p>
<p>^Well, then, if you know about the Catholic Church (I have also “been through” Baptism, Confession, Communion, and Confirmation though not Last Rites fortunately) you would know that is not what is taught by those who are truly Catholic. Catholics killed in the name of God. Yes. They did, as you so aptly point out. In doing so, were they following their own doctrine? No, they were not. Your point is not valid, because Catholic doctrine never teaches to kill. When people misinterpret the Bible, often for some temporal gain, that is when the killing results. </p>
<p>Islam, in sharia law, does teach the killing of infidels. I don’t care if you are well acquainted with Islam or with Catholicism. Go look it up on the internet. Go ask a priest. Go read something by the popes. The facts are against you. Stop bringing your personal past into this argument. I will tell you what you do and don’t know about Catholicism when you start spreading what is not true. I will defend my own religion. </p>
<p>But this is not the point of the thread, and so I think if you want to continue arguing with me, PM me and we can talk. Let others talk here about the center in NYC.</p>
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</p>
<p>They do not now (mostly), but they DID when these things were going on. There are STILL branches of Christianity that teach that nonbelievers should be killed. </p>
<p>No. This is EXACTLY the point. You give Christianity a pass by saying that it was in the past or that it was just extremists who perverted the Bible/teachings. However, MUSLIM extremists are doing the SAME THING today and yet you are blaming or holding responsible ALL MUSLIMS. </p>
<p>It is a double standard and exactly what is driving a wedge through this country. By saying you can’t build there because it is disrespectful is in and of itself disrespectful. We build churches on lands where millions have been slaughtered and it’s OK. You have to have the same set of standards for each religion in this country. </p>
<p>And btw, I have been to many Islamic prayers and Islamic mosque meetings. I have never ONCE heard anyone say that people should be killed who don’t believe. </p>
<p>And now I am done arguing with your ignorance. I have no intention of PMing you. Good day sir/ma’am.</p>
<p>Wrong again. Catholicism never taught that. Look at things in context when studying history. Often, temporal leaders perverted things for their own ends. Muslim extremists are different because in the purist sense of Islam, meaning sharia law, that is what they teach. It is completely different, and is in no way a “double standard”. I do not blame all Muslims. I have and greatly respect Muslim friends. I respect those Muslims who do not want to kill me. Why should I respect those that do? </p>
<p>Why am I ignorant? Because I say things you do not wish to hear? Labeling me as “ignorant” and refusing to argue with me, even over PMs, is hardly convincing of your point. Have a nice day yourself, hopefully you might read something truthful about Christianity. </p>
<p>Let the thread continue.</p>
<p>Tell me, Circular, since you insist on continuing. </p>
<p>Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God? Do you believe that that is where Christians should find out how they should live their lives?</p>
<p>The Bible is the word of God. But, the question is, which Bible? The one rewritten by Protestants or fundamentalist groups? Or shall we go the Vulgate? Or even further, to the original Greek? And, as a Catholic, I believe in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. </p>
<p>Don’t try to trap me like that. You would have me say yes, and you would list incidents of where the Bible teaches killing. But I won’t. </p>
<p>Are you familiar with Tolkien’s theory of the Bible? The one by which he converted C.S. Lewis away from Agnosticism? </p>
<p>Anyways, why not PM me? The thread can continue on about the NYC Islam Center debate which it originally was that way.</p>
<p>All I asked was a simple question. The Bible does preach violence. That does not mean that all Christians want to kill people. </p>
<p>The Quran preaches violence. That does not mean all Muslims want to kill people. </p>
<p>If you can throw your support behind a church, then you must throw your support behind a mosque. </p>
<p>I have never veered off the topic of the NYC Islamic Center. My point has always been- if you can support a church, then you must support a mosque. </p>
<p>People argue that they support a church because Christianity does not preach violence. This is false. </p>
<p>We build churches where millions were slaughtered by Christian radicals. </p>
<p>Therefore, we MUST support a mosque where thousands were slaughtered by Muslim radicals.</p>
<p>That was my point.</p>
<p>@Stelex: If you want to pull stuff out of context and innocently claim that its what you’ve been reading, I can do a lot worse. But Im going to be fair and show the entire verse.</p>
<p>So, heres a quick overview:
-Does Islam really allow the killing of innocent unbelievers?</p>
<p>This is one misunderstanding that keeps rising up against Islam. Islam does not in anyway allow for the killing of any innocent soul. I have gathered some of the Noble Verses that I am aware of that deal directly with war and peace to shed some light upon this misunderstood issue.</p>
<p>Noble Verses that order the killing of the enemies:</p>
<p>Verses 9:28-29 “O ye believe! Truly the pagans are unclear; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear povery, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, For Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, from among the people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”</p>
<p>Noble Verse 9:5 “Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.” (If anyone went out of his way to learn more, you would know that the idol worshippers tortured the prophet and his people and drove them out of Makkah before the prophet openly preached Islam, so this verse was addressed to the transgressors and combatants against Islam…what do you expect us to do? Watch them as they slay our people?)</p>
<p>“Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)”</p>
<p>“On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)”</p>
<p>“Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. (But) the Penalty on the Day Of Judgement will be doubled To him, and he will dwell Therein in ignominy. (The Noble Quran, 25:68-69)” </p>
<p>“But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)”</p>
<p>“If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. (The Noble Quran, 5:28)”</p>
<p>“God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)”</p>
<p>“And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)”</p>
<p>“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)”</p>
<p>“Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God’s will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)”</p>
<p>“Say, ‘The truth is from your Lord’: Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):…(The Noble Quran, 18:29)”</p>
<p>“If it had been thy Lord’s will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)”</p>
<p>“Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)”</p>
<p>“Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)”</p>
<p>“Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: ‘O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.’ (The Noble Quran, 18:86)” ** In this Noble Verse we see that if the enemy wants to do us harm, then we must punish those who did us harm. Otherwise, we must treat the enemy civilians and the innocents with kindness.**</p>
<p>Let us look at Noble Verse 45:14 “Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned.”</p>
<p>Let us look at Noble Verse 5:32 “…if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people…” In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty honors all the innocent souls that He created. Killing any innocent soul is so hated by Allah Almighty that He considers it as a crime against all of Mankind.</p>
<p>Let us look at Noble Verse 25:68 “Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment.” In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty considers the innocent soul “sacred”. He will punish those who kill the innocent souls (by throwing the murderers in hell). </p>
<p>Let us look at Noble Verse 2:182 “But if anyone fears partiality or wrong-doing on the part of the testator, and makes peace between (The parties concerned), there is no wrong in him: For God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”</p>
<p>Let us look at Noble Verse 2:224 “And make not God’s (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for God is One Who heareth and knoweth all things.”</p>
<p>I’d say, this Noble Verse clearly proves my point: Let us look at Noble Verse 8:61 “But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).” In this Noble Verse, we clearly see Allah Almighty ordering us, the Muslims, to incline toward peace when the enemy inclines toward peace. This proves that Islam is not a religion for wars, but for peace.</p>
<p>Allah Almighty orders Muslims in the Noble Quran to allow total freedom of choice to people and to never try to force them into Islam; “Let there be no compulsion (forcing others) in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)” The Noble Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the “Truth stands out clear from error…(2:256)”</p>
<hr>
<p>Lets see what the ! ! ! BIBLE ! ! ! has to say:</p>
<p>1 Samuel 15:2,3</p>
<p>2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ "</p>
<p>Numbers 31:17,18</p>
<p>17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.</p>
<p>Deuteronomy 20:16</p>
<p>16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.</p>
<p>(Christianity allows men to sell their daughters as slaves…wow)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)</p>
<p>Rape in the Bible:
“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.” Deuteronomy 22:28-29</p>
<p>Pillage and Plunder:
"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. But these instructions apply only to distant towns, not to the towns of nations nearby. “As for the towns of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as a special possession, destroy every living thing in them. You must completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you. This will keep the people of the land from teaching you their detestable customs in the worship of their gods, which would cause you to sin deeply against the LORD your God.” Deuteronomy 20:10-18 NLT</p>
<p>Bashing Babies Against Rocks and Ripping Open Pregnant Women:
“The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by our army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords.” (Hosea 13:16 NLT)</p>
<p>Punishment of Innocent Children:
“You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their father’s wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation” (Exodus 20:4-5 NAB)</p>
<p>“The Prince of Peace”
(Jesus speaking) “Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man ‘against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his household’”. (Matthew 10:34-36 NAB)</p>
<p>Kill 7 nations:
You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, ‘How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?’ But don’t be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)</p>
<p>Kill All of Babylon:
“Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)</p>
<p>Let this be a warning to others who want to quote the Quran and do so in a half-arsed attempt to mess the image of it. My intention is not to bash the Bible, but to prove that Christianity, the religion so widespread and around you, is not all dandy. Enjoy.</p>
<p>@Romani: I agree. And the above verses from the bible support your statement. Islam instructs the killing of COMBATANT infidels if it endangers the safety of the muslims. If the combatant infidels don’t, then we try to broker a peace treaty so we can live in peace together.</p>
<p>@ romangypsie, Your point is incorrect. The Bible does not preach violence. Maybe fundamentalists do, claiming to read it in the “Bible”. The Quran does in sharia law. These are facts. I agree with you in that not all Muslims want to kill people. I have no issue with them. It’s their choice. Catholicism (which in the only form of Christianity I am speaking of, or indeed, that I can speak of) does not preach violence. </p>
<p>Look, no matter how much you want to believe Catholics teach violence, the facts are not there. It is crucial for you to understand that what I mean by teach is that the popes and the bishops do not teach it formally, instead of random temporally motivated monks inflaming crowds, for example. That does not count, because they are not following Catholicism at that point. You are trying to equate all religions with one another and thus say a Mosque (which, by the way, is not what is being built in NYC) is the same as a Church. That argument does not work because of the facts. </p>
<p>Newsflash: I support their right to build a center there, and wherever else. I have always done so in this thread. I merely questioned their motives, their sense of respect for those who died on 9/11, and their common sense. Can they build there? Yes. Should they build there? IMO, no they should build somewhere else, even just a few blocks farther away, to avoid appearing disrespectful. </p>
<p>That was my point.</p>
<p>@konig, randomly quoting verses from the Bible and the Quran does not count as evidence. Not only are you taking pretty much every quote out of context, you are also ignoring sharia law and the matter of which Bible to quote. Can you quote the Vulgate? Or the Greek? Those are, effectively, the most correct manifestations of the Bible.</p>
<p>^^I read the first sentence and stopped.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>+1. They have the right to build the center there; that does not mean that they should.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>… -.-</p>
<p>1 Samuel 15:2-3 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’</p>
<p>Deuteronomy 13:6-10
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.</p>
<p>Luke 19: 26-27
26 [Jesus] replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."</p>
<p>Want me to keep going?</p>
<p>Oh and PS: when did I say Catholics preach violence? </p>
<p>I said people that pervert the Christian religion do/used to preach violence.
I said people that pervert the religion of Islam do/used to preach violence.</p>
<p>Oh, and third: please, do learn to read. </p>
<p>My name, if you would like to shorten it, is romani, romanigypsy, gypsy, whatever. Please stop inverting letters and/or adding letters to my name. It’s extremely annoying.</p>