The New 2007 US News Top Colleges

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=227117[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=227117</a></p>

<p>Apparently someone has somehow gotten a copy of it early. This looks pretty legit.</p>

<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>CalTech
MIT
Stanford</li>
<li>Penn</li>
<li>Duke</li>
<li>Columbia
Dartmouth
Chicago</li>
<li>Cornell
WUSTL</li>
<li>Northwestern</li>
<li>Brown</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins</li>
<li>Rice</li>
<li>Emory
Vanderbilt</li>
<li>Notre Dame</li>
<li>Carneie Mellon
Berkeley</li>
<li>Georgetown</li>
<li>Michigan
Virginia</li>
<li>UCLA</li>
<li>Tufts
UNC Chapel Hill
USC</li>
</ol>

<p>Berkeley drops another spot? This is the last straw. I think some naked protests in front of the U.S. News and World Report building needs to be held…</p>

<p>In fact, most of the UCs got hurt pretty badly:</p>

<p>38 UCSD -6
44 UCI -4
21 UCB -1
47 UCSB -2
26 UCLA -1
47 UCD 1</p>

<p>Discuss.</p>

<p>Hm, Michigan and Virgina tied for #2 public school in the nation. Only Georgetown separates Berkeley from the pack (Michigan, Virginia, UCLA, UNC).</p>

<p>Anyway, US News sucks for its continual ivy and private bias.</p>

<p>We dropped a spot!?!? OMGGGG</p>

<p>I bring shame to my aZn family.</p>

<p>Note to self: Purchase noose. :(</p>

<p>Snap. UCLA really is catching up...
Question: a couple decades ago, UVa was the undisputed top public school. It was perennially #1, just like Berkeley is now. When and why did Berkeley suddenly shoot above UVa to take the top rank? And how have we managed to stay this way?</p>

<p>they change the methodology to favor another statistic. while i don't know the methodology this year, i'm assuming thats how a school like penn went from an undeserved 4 to 7, and a school like chicago went from 9 to 16. </p>

<p>unfortunately, people hear private schools and think that because they're private they're automatically better than the publics. i've said it before and i'll say it again, the middle of the pack public schools are better than the middle of the pack private schools, and the best public schools (albiet fewer are of the top quality of the top privates) are as good as the best private schools. the usnews ranking doesn't show this unfortunately.</p>

<p>oh and in answer to your uva/berkeley question the few things i could think of are 1) selectivity. berkeley's bogus 99% in top 10% claim pushes them much higher, and 2) UVa's funding from virginia has dropped from 25% in the 70s to a meager 8% last year.</p>

<p>Academic prestige weighs very heavily and Berkeley's graduate programs helped push their prestige into Harvard/Stanford category.</p>

<p>I would heartily disagree that the best publics are better than the mid-tier privates. Berkeley as an institution is probably down there around 30th if you adjust for its real prestige (regarding a graduates ability to enter graduate programs and find a job) versus the way USNews accounts for it (asking college deans who aren't on adcoms).</p>

<p>The UC's went down a little is probably due to California's continuing public management problems. I would expect the trend to continue unless California were to fix its governance (not bloody likely).</p>

<p>Berkeley remains #2 for undergrad engineering..woohoo</p>

<p>However, you must consider Cal was ranked in the top ten for The Times UK, Shanghai, Washington, and Newsweek. :) We need to hold our breaths until the 17th, when the rankings officially come out.</p>

<p>Nah, these are official.</p>

<p>Those who are surprised, snap out of it. </p>

<p>Berkeley is not THAT outstanding a "college" in spite of being an indisputably outstanding "university."</p>

<p>
[quote]
However, you must consider Cal was ranked in the top ten for The Times UK, Shanghai, Washington, and Newsweek.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>All of those, with the exception of Washington Monthly, claim themselves to be rankings of "universities." Few rankings of universities say Berkeley isn't a great university - that is, a place where human knowledge is expanded through research. What some COLLEGE (like USNews and World Report "America's Great Colleges") rankings DO say is that Berkeley isn't that comparatively "great" a place to get an undergraduate degree as opposed to say, Princeton. (It should be noted that on rankings of universities, Princeton drops significatly because it's just not that "great" of a "university.")</p>

<p>Universities, overall, are usually rated on their graduate research and the quality of their faculty.</p>

<p>What most students will care about on this board is how Berkeley fares as an undergraduate experience, and Berkeley's high graduate rankings greatly inflates that ranking.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Universities, overall, are usually rated on their graduate research and the quality of their faculty.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yup. </p>

<p>
[quote]
What most students will care about on this board is how Berkeley fares as an undergraduate experience, and Berkeley's high graduate rankings greatly inflates that ranking.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I think it's important to remember that the "undergraduate experience" at Berkeley can be and is extremely diverse. Quite a few programs at Berkeley offer "Ivy caliber" undergraduate experiences. The most obvious example I can think of is the 1000 student strong History major, which has a long history of excellent graduate school placement for its undergrads.</p>

<p>Or... the 109 student IEOR major, with really awesome professors and relatively close knit community (as described by my IEOR friends)!!</p>

<p>And wow, Princeton is now ahead of Harvard!</p>

<p>Mixed Results? WHICH IS RIGHT DUN DUN DUN</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=226590%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=226590&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>go IEOR!!!!</p>

<p>
[quote]
Anyway, US News sucks for its continual ivy and private bias

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
unfortunately, people hear private schools and think that because they're private they're automatically better than the publics. i've said it before and i'll say it again, the middle of the pack public schools are better than the middle of the pack private schools, and the best public schools (albiet fewer are of the top quality of the top privates) are as good as the best private schools. the usnews ranking doesn't show this unfortunately.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If USNews has such a continual ivy and private bias, then why would public schools like Berkeley do so well in USNews's GRADUATE rankings? Seriously, if USNews was really so biased against Berkeley, wouldn't it be biased against Berkeley in ALL of its rankings? </p>

<p>I believe that USNews is actually accurately portraying the notion that Berkeley's graduate programs are better than its undergrad program, something of which I doubt is a matter of serious dispute. </p>

<p>Besides, what's so bad about Berkeley being ranked in the 20's? There are literally thousands of schools in the country, almost all of them being no-name schools. If you go to Berkeley for undergrad, you are going to a school in the top 1-2% of all progarms. I think that's pretty good.</p>

<p>Sakky, your deductive resoning is sound. However, once you look at the evidence in their ranking methodology, it's easy to see why they prefer private schools (faculty ratio and alumni contribution).</p>

<p>Those things matter to students.</p>

<p>Faculty Ratio = Smaller Class Sizes.
Alumni Contribution = Easier to find a job through alumni network (because alumni care more)</p>

<p>Berkeley deserves an even lower ranking.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Sakky, your deductive resoning is sound. However, once you look at the evidence in their ranking methodology, it's easy to see why they prefer private schools (faculty ratio and alumni contribution).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Everybody seems to always make a big deal about the 'alumni contribution'. Yet in the last rankings (and presumably the upcoming one), that category made up only 5% of the overall ranking. So even if we were to take that category away, how much would Berkeley really move up? 2 or 3 ranking points, at most? That's inconsequential. </p>

<p>And what of 'faculty ratio'? I think this is a perfectly sound category. After all, you are trying to measure the faculty resources available to the students on a per-capita basis. Why is that unreasonable? One of Berkeley's perennial problems is that it tends to have larger class sizes than the private shools do. I know one former Berkeley MCB student who told me that, except for pure lab classes, not once did he ever have a MCB class that was smaller than 50 students. </p>

<p>I'll put it to you this way. Berkeley graduate students never complain about having to wade through all kinds of giant faceless lecture courses. You never hear of a Berkeley PhD student complaining that he feels like a number. I know one alum who once gushed about how she and all her classmates always had such close contact and close relationships with all of her profs, a discussion which made no sense to me at all until I realized that she was never an undergrad at Berkeley, but rather she was an MBA student at Haas. Then it all made sense - Haas really is quite famous for its tight-knit class and close relationships with students and faculty. </p>

<p>The point is, I believe faculty resources on a per-capita basis are an important metric. If Berkeley refuses to offer such resources for its undergrads, then Berkeley loses points, and ought to lose points. The answer is for Berkeley to provide more resources. While it is true that Berkeley has plenty of undergrad resources, it also has 23 thousand undergrads competing for those resources. The ratios are far more favorable for Berkeley's graduate students, which is why Berkeley's graduate rankings tend to be better. For example, consider that former Berkeley MCB undergrad who never got a non-lab MCB class that was smaller than 50 students. At the same time, I know a Berkeley MCB grad student who said that she never had a Berkeley graduate class that was larger than 20 students. In fact, most of her classes had 10 students or less. Wouldn't it be nice if Berkeley's undergrads had the same level of resources that the grad students had? </p>

<p>Look, my point is this. I don't see any evidence to believe that USNews is systematically biased against Berkeley. After all, if USNews was really biased, then you would expect that Berkeley's USNews undergrad AND grad rankings to be low. It's like accusing somebody of being a racist just because he gives low marks to one minority person, ignoring the fact that he gives other minorities high marks. If somebody is truly a racist, you would expect him to give low marks to ALL minorities.</p>

<p>Aren't you the Devil's Avocate. It seems like you always downplay Berkeley's undergraduate school.</p>