"The opener could boost Cal's reputation..."

<p>ttg, I think we have about the same level of talent as Tennessee, but they had several edges going into this game: home field advantage, leadership and experience at QB, coaching (our new offensive coordinator laid an egg, 12 carries for Lynch?), and Tenn also knew our defensive signals. No wonder Ainge looked so good, he knew in advance what our D was going to do and was able to take advantage of some mismatches in the secondary.</p>

<p>I think this Cal team can end up in the Holiday Bowl and finish 2nd in the pac-10. The Rose Bowl is a big reach, but not impossible. I appreciate your entusiasm and look forward to flying in for a game this season. Hope to meet some of you guys in Strawberry Canyon.</p>

<p>Go Bears!</p>

<p>I can solve this whole problem of game planning: GIVE IT TO MARSHAWN!!!! Our QBs don't look great, our "great" wideouts can't catch a ball, so if we want to win enough games to play in a bowl game then we need to just feed Lynch the ball 30 times a game. I think he carried it 12 times yesterday.</p>

<p>CalX, ha! I've had a lot of remarks made about my "enthusiasm." From my standpoint, it's the only way to stay sane, as in (1) not going crazy over lapses last game and (2) not be one of those embarrassing fairweather fans in the Student Section. I think a comment was made by a Volunteer fan at the game that when Marshawn came out of the tunnel and took the field, he just stood around and took in a 360 panorama of the stadium. I can't even imagine the sensations running through Lynch's- or any of our other players'- veins; I do know that my knees would be rattling in Knoxville, for sure. If I see sweat on our boys, then it shows me they put effort into their performance; that's really all a fan can hope for. A second-place finish in the Pac-10 prediction is actually fairly generous in the Bears' lair nowadays, but I wholeheartedly agree with you. The "promise" that we showed in the offseason did not diminish just because of one game. If that were the case, last season was not a success but a tragedy, if we judge the year by the Oregon State debacle (if we win a bowl (LV) and beat Stanfurd, I would call that a successful season). And so, there's hope left in Berkeley and it's not a bad thing to show some faith, although it might not be as fashionable as blaming it on the quarterbacks. That's not to say I'm blindly optimistic: I remember last year's game versus USC, and when the mic men started the chant "fourth quarter's ours...", I certainly didn't go for it. =/</p>

<p>By the way, have you decided which game you are coming in for? Is it a situational consideration? I know, for example, that I don't have enough dough to travel to LA for the SC game in November (limited tickets for student season ticket holders go on sale in October), but if our team starts to play significantly better and have hopes of running the Pac-10, well, I might be compelled to put money on the benefits (& ask questions later) over the cost.</p>

<p>GO BEARS!</p>

<p>It's kind of situational ttg, but not contingent on football performance, I'm shooting for the UCLA game, but that will depend on my business schedule.</p>

<p>Cal lost because of inconsistent QB play, an overrated secondary, and the fact that Lynch only got 12 carries (even if they were behind and had to pass).</p>

<p>The secondary is quite good, even without Mixon. The problem was the defensive scheme, Thompson had no support whatsoever, and that situation was compounded by the fact that Tennessee knew what our defense was going to do due to the fact that they deciphered our coaches' defensive signals.</p>

<p>But yeah, QB is a big issue for us right now. That's not good in football...</p>

<p>ttgiang15,</p>

<p>You'd brought good points to this forum. But I don't think Cal is any less than TN talent-wise. Otherwise, they wouldn't be ranked #9 preseason. The problem is the preseason ranking assumes a decent QB but the QB was terrible in the last game. </p>

<p>
[quote]
These are student-athletes, they come to college and come to learn. Cal is interesting in that the high school stars we recruit often cite academics as the selling point for their coming to Berkeley as opposed to schools like UCLA or USC.

[/quote]

I'd also like to point out as far as football goes, USC and UCLA players actually have better graduation rates, according to last stats I saw. You statement applies to most of the Cal's teams but probably not football/basketball.</p>

<p>Anyway, it was painful to watch. A win would have helped not only Cal but the whole Pac-10. I hope Oregon will beat Oklahoma. Otherwise, we may have to keep hearing people say this is a one-team conference.</p>

<p>Sam Lee, thanks for your comments. I will always contest, in any given year, that the top tier teams in the SEC have more talent than any group of players Cal will field in the near future. I won't go into it much further, though this is coming from a West-Coast boy.</p>

<p>I would be careful at looking at graduation rates. I would not say that they are indicative of a materialization of a student looking to Cal for its academics. Apart form football, Tedford sells our program as one that educates. I believe our football players have a team average of 3.0 GPA, and Tedford is not shy to share that information. Keep in mind that this while sharing the classroom with the rest of us, which is definitely an achievement (insofar as these students dedicate a lot of their times off the field and traveling). Would it make a difference, hypothetically speaking, if UCLA shuttles 80% of their players through graduation with an average of 2.4 GPA, as compared to 70% of Cal players with 3.0 GPA (and, an arguably more rigorous classes)? And let's not even add USC into this conversation: remember, Matt Leinart came back for his senior year and took ballet (only course) for goodness sakes. A school can be a diploma mill and not prepare their students for life after school (erm, life after "football"); but, I argue, this is exactly why Cal student-athletes want to come here: they want to be challenged on the field and inside the classroom. These students understand that the majority of them will be working 9-5 on the weekdays as opposed to Sunday afternoons, and this is what separates Cal from UCLA and USC.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I believe our football players have a team average of 3.0 GPA, and Tedford is not shy to share that information.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't believe this is true, and if it is, I would like to see some proof. There is some anecdotal evidence that the average football GPA has improved, but not to a 3.0. </p>

<p>For example, in 2005, Cal has only 8 players on the Pac-10 All-Academic team (including honorable mention). You only need a 3.0 to be named to the team. At least 2 of those players (punter David Lonie and DL Tosh Lupoi) had BARELY above a 3.0, and that doesn't include the honorable mention players for whom the GPA's are not listed. </p>

<p>The point is, if the team GPA was really a 3.0, I think you would expect to see a lot more Cal players on the All-Academic team. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.pac-10.org/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/111805aad.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.pac-10.org/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/111805aad.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Would it make a difference, hypothetically speaking, if UCLA shuttles 80% of their players through graduation with an average of 2.4 GPA, as compared to 70% of Cal players with 3.0 GPA (and, an arguably more rigorous classes)?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, is it really more rigorous? Of the 4 Cal players on the 2005 All-Academic Pac-10 First and Second team, their majors are Education, Mass Comm, and American Studies. Let's face it. That's not exactly comparable to, say, EECS or Chemical Engineering.</p>

<p>As far as the graduation reports, according to official NCAA data, about 40-50% of Cal football players graduate, compared to about 57-63% at UCLA, and 50-55% at USC. Granted, this data is a bit old, and is mostly about the pre-Tedford days. But the point is, I don't see any statistical evidence to back up the notion that Cal football players are any more academically oriented than anybody else. If nothing else, it means that clearly the Cal football team was a mess in the old days. Not only was it a bad team (went 1-10 in 2001), but was a bad team that had a relatively poor graduation rate. </p>

<p><a href="http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/inst2005/107.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/inst2005/107.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/inst2005/110.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/inst2005/110.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/inst2005/657.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/inst2005/657.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Look, don't get me wrong. None of this is to say that Cal has a "bad" football program. I still think Cal should make it to some sort of bowl game and remain a top 25 team this year, and that's clearly a lot better than the old days. I just don't know that there is strong evidence to back up the claims that Cal football players are all that interested in academics.</p>

<p>Strykur, although I never liked and still don't like your ignominous posts, I would have to agree tha Longshore SUCKED in that game.</p>

<p>Thanks for the links, Sakky. These are appalling graduation rates, by any standards, but that's the unfortunate reality of the matter. You brought up the all-important point that the data corresponds to recruits from the pre-Tedford area; this is a critical distinction. Our current coach's commitment to academics (termed "Academic Game Plan") and his demonstrated success on the field distinguishes him from his predecessors; no wonder he is the highest paid employee in the UC system. The problem with the data is that, as I read it, it comments on the recruiting class of 1994-95. Even leading up to Tedford, the graduation rate was an abysmal 48%. Since Tedford took over, the graduation rate has increased every year and 1/2 the players have a 3.0 or higher. These are still the recruits from before Tedford, but these facts comment on the turnaround our coach has achieved in his short time here. What is going to be telling is how this year's graduating class does: it represents the first recruiting class in the Tedford era. We should hold judgment until then. </p>

<p>Your bringing up "All-Academic Pac-10" honors is borderline ridiculous. For your assumptions to be true, those players listed for Cal would have to be the highest performing student-athletes at our school, and somehow there would have to be a system for measuing top students from one school to the next. In truth, it is all politics. Just looking up and down the list, it seems as though each school is guaranteed at least three selections to your mentioned teams. Some schools have more than others, big deal. What you fail to mention that two out of those four players listed for Cal are graduate students; Ryan Foltz with a 3.59 in Education and HAAS MBA and Tosh Lupoi with a 3.04 in Education and American Studies. Like you always say, Sakky, Cal's graduate schools (as a whole) are arguably one of the best in the world.</p>

<p>As a conclusion to this post, it was not my intention to argue for the actual performance of a recruit in college. They may come to a college with higher SAT scores and higher GPA than a UCLA recruit and still achieve a lower GPA; that's why I mentioned relative difficulties of classes. The effect of Academics on recruits is that it makes one campus more attractive than another; for example, comparing Cal to Arizona State, all things equal (I argued that a case can be made for comparing Cal to USC and UCLA, under the assumption that those schools are jokes when it comes to their drive towards getting the best recruits and keeping them eligible). Of course, this might illustrate why you chose to participate in this thread: the other assumption is that a Cal undergraduate diploma is more valued than USC or UCLA.</p>

<p>I'm sure that just made your blood boil, didn't it, Sakky? =)</p>

<p>TTG</p>

<p>I've had this conversation with sakky before. He/she fully knows that the NCAA data is totally outdated, it tacked student-athletes who came into Cal in the late 90s, yet he/she won't miss a chance to bash the school.</p>

<p>Our current football grad rate is actually about 75-80%, with a large portion of those who don't graduate having gone to the NFL a few units short of graduating. Every senior from the last two years graduated , a handful went the NFL and the attrition rate the last few years was fairly low.</p>

<p>Dismissing the team's GPA on the basis of major is ridiculous, the humanities and social sciences at Cal are no less challenging than most other majors. Some of the hardest courses on my curriculum were my humanities electives, as opposed to science and engineering classes.</p>

<p>The all-academic selections are based on the academic year GPAs from last year as well. Expect many more entries from Cal on next year's team.</p>

<p>Guys, especially TTG,</p>

<p>I am amazed by your lack of knowledge of college sports. Listening to your own pep talk will only enlighten you for nothing. </p>

<p>CAL, over the years, has admitted some players with questionable academics, whom UCLA and USC wouldn't even touch. In general players are basically on the same academic level for most of schools except for Stanford, ND, and Duke, etc, when they just got out of high school. Their GPAs usually is below 3.0. Now I do applaud if they have high drive to excel in academics in Berkeley as you believed, but an above 3.0 GPA (if true) pretty much say nothing but the kind of courses they took. Otherwise it may say something about the performance of you general student body whose average GPA is also around 3.0.</p>

<p>Besides, bragging about your athletes' GPA whenever they lost games does look funny. CAL football hasn't learned to face adversity and pressure for many years. I hope they become good at what they do, after earning decent GPA though.</p>

<p>qw553, that post was so disjointed I don't even know where to begin. The grammar was terrible, the reasoning was worse; I mean, ouch, don't hurt yourself.</p>

<p>I may not agree with what sakky says sometime, but I appreciate how he always tries to provide sources for his data and he doesn't seem to hide the fact that some of the stats may be outdated. I think anyone of us is smart enough to look at the dates anyway.</p>

<p>So I would like to see sources to back up "half the football players have 3.0 or higher" and "graduation rate of 75-80% for football players". Honestly, I am very skeptical about the graduation rate of 75-80%. NCAA no longer makes these data available to the public. Isn't Berkeley overall grad rate in the low 80s%? Most Div-I teams have signficantly lower rates than their the regular student bodies. Most coaches would tell you they cared about academics even back in the 90s...blah blah but the NCAA data told very different stories. Only teams like Northwestern, Duke, and Stanford are exceptions but their football teams are usually not that great. Northwestern sometime had a decent team but their recruiting class was never considered anywhere in the top-25 (because of relatively high admission standard). They simply overachieved when no one expected. If Tedford did bring the dramatic change in academic standard and grad rate ttgiant15 and CalX described while consistently bringing one of the top recruiting class, then he has done something no others have. I'd think there would be quite a few articles written for such accomplishment. Is there any though?</p>

<p>
[quote]
He/she fully knows that the NCAA data is totally outdated, it tacked student-athletes who came into Cal in the late 90s, yet he/she won't miss a chance to bash the school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hey, we all have the right to our own opinions, but we don't have the right to our own FACTS. And the NCAA facts clearly state that Cal's published graduation rates are low.</p>

<p>Now, I agree that the data is old, and mostly pre-Tedford data, and I even stated that explicitly. But, if nothing else, that just proves that the previous football coach (Holmoe) was shamefully bad. You then have to ask why did Cal hire such a bad coach? After all, not only did Cal have a football team (1-10 in 2001). But it was also a bad football team that CHEATED (was put on probation in 2002). Not only that, but even though it cheated, it STILL had a low graduation rate. Hey man, that's basically the trifecta right there. I would say that if you're going to cheat, and you're going to have a low graduation rate, you should at least win a lot of games. Cal couldn't even do that. That's sad. </p>

<p>Now I agree that getting rid of Holmoe and company was a very good thing. But we still can't sweep that under the rug. The fact remains that back in those days, the Cal football team was an utter mess. That's an inescapable conclusion from the facts. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Our current football grad rate is actually about 75-80%, with a large portion of those who don't graduate having gone to the NFL a few units short of graduating. Every senior from the last two years graduated , a handful went the NFL and the attrition rate the last few years was fairly low.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I, along with Sam Lee, would like to see published sources that state that the Cal graduation rate really is 75-80%. I work hard to find sources to back up my data. If you don't want with what I say, you can at least check out my sources and draw your own conclusion from the data. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Dismissing the team's GPA on the basis of major is ridiculous, the humanities and social sciences at Cal are no less challenging than most other majors. Some of the hardest courses on my curriculum were my humanities electives, as opposed to science and engineering classes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Then perhaps you could explain the presence of numerous studies that discuss in exquisite detail the different grading standards and grade inflation in technical vs. non-technical majors, not just at Cal, but nationwide. </p>

<p>I'll give you just a few snippets.</p>

<p>"Grades in humanities courses are notably higher than those in the social sciences, and both are higher than grades in the natural sciences. "</p>

<p><a href="http://chronicle.com/free/v47/i30/30b02401.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://chronicle.com/free/v47/i30/30b02401.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Rine described the shock he felt during his three years on the Committee on Teaching from roughly 1998 to 2000 when he reviewed teaching records for large undergraduate classes, with more than 100 students, in which no one got less than an A-, year after year. At the time, Rine asked Associate Registrar Walter Wong to assemble some data looking at upper division and lower division grading in the physical sciences, biological sciences, social sciences, humanities and engineering, so that he could distinguish trends from anecdotal exceptions. The results were clear. "The physical sciences and engineering had rigorous grading standards roughly in line with the recommendations from 1976," stated Rine, "while the humanities and social sciences in many classes had all but given up on grades below a B, and in many courses below an A-,"</p>

<p><a href="http://ls.berkeley.edu/undergrad/colloquia/04-11.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ls.berkeley.edu/undergrad/colloquia/04-11.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"The Problem With Math and Science</p>

<p>Students in the sciences are the ones most likely to face grade deflation, Mansfield said.</p>

<p>"Science is harder and grades in the sciences generally lag behind humanities,” he said.</p>

<p>SUNY Binghamton senior Kristin Schmitt thinks she's experienced grade deflation in her biology and chemistry classes, "because I noticed most science majors tend to have lower GPAs.""</p>

<p><a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209076,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209076,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Grade inflation has proceeded more rapidly in the humanities than in the natural sciences, "</p>

<p><a href="http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3651/is_199910/ai_n8871068%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3651/is_199910/ai_n8871068&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
The all-academic selections are based on the academic year GPAs from last year as well. Expect many more entries from Cal on next year's team.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I guess we'll find out. But the fact remains that the 2006 All-Academic team were mostly players under the Tedford regime. You can't really blame Tom Holmoe for that. </p>

<p>But there seems to have been no upward progression. Every year, Cal has about 4-6 players on the All-Academic team (and about 8-10 total, including honorable mention), whether it was during Holmoe or during Tedford. There is no data that indicates that All-Academic selections have improved under Tedford. </p>

<p>If you have such data, then be all means, please present it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Your bringing up "All-Academic Pac-10" honors is borderline ridiculous. For your assumptions to be true, those players listed for Cal would have to be the highest performing student-athletes at our school, and somehow there would have to be a system for measuing top students from one school to the next. In truth, it is all politics. Just looking up and down the list, it seems as though each school is guaranteed at least three selections to your mentioned teams. Some schools have more than others, big deal.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My point in bringing up the All-Academic team, particularly the GPA, is to dispute the contention that the Call football average GPA is a 3.0. After all, like I said, getting a 3.0 will get you at least Honorable Mention on the All-Academic Team (providing you are also a substantial contributor on the field). Yet as you can see, there aren't THAT many Cal students on the All-Academic Team. If the average team GPA was really a 3.0, you would expect to see lots more players getting at least Honorable Mention.</p>

<p>But hey, if you have data that backs up the statement that the average team GPA really is 3.0, then by all means, present it. In the absence of that, I think we have to conclude that this is probably not the case, for otherwise there would be more Cal players on the All-Academic team. </p>

<p>However, don't say that what I am doing is 'ridiculous'. I could have just as easily have said that your assertion that the average football team GPA is 3.0 is ridiculous, because it is unsupported by any data of which I am aware of. But I would like to refrain from this sort of behavior, because I think we are trying to have a serious conversation here about the football team. So lke I said, if you have some data, then by all means, please present it. I have presented mine. </p>

<p>
[quote]
What you fail to mention that two out of those four players listed for Cal are graduate students; Ryan Foltz with a 3.59 in Education and HAAS MBA and Tosh Lupoi with a 3.04 in Education and American Studies. Like you always say, Sakky, Cal's graduate schools (as a whole) are arguably one of the best in the world.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First off, Ryan Foltz is NOT a Haas MBA. He has a B.S. from Haas, and then got an M.A. from the School of Education. It is that M.A. in Education that made him a "graduate student". </p>

<p>You can see his biography here at his employer's website where he is now working as an investment banker (scroll down to find his name). </p>

<p><a href="http://www.harriswilliams.com/professionals/ana_list.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.harriswilliams.com/professionals/ana_list.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Now I agree that it is quite an accomplishment to be a Cal football player whil also getting a Haas BS and an Education M.A.. But that's not quite the same thing as getting into the Haas MBA program. </p>

<p>Tosh Lupoi is a graduate student in Education, as can be seen here.</p>

<p><a href="http://calbears.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/lupoi_tosh00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://calbears.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/lupoi_tosh00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Look, nobody is denying that Cal, like any other school, has some players who are also pretty decent students But the point is, I don't see any reason to believe that the Cal football players as a whole are any MORE academically oriented than its peers schools.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Since Tedford took over, the graduation rate has increased every year and 1/2 the players have a 3.0 or higher.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>See, there it is again. With what data are you basing this on? I would really like to see it. After all, if 1/2 the players really have a 3.0 or higher, then you would expect to have far more players on the All-Academic team. After all, the only thing you need to be on the all-Academic team (at least for honorable mention) is to have a 3.0, and be a significant contributor on the field. So if what you are saying is really true, then you would expect Cal to be DOMINATING the ranks of the All-Academic team. This is clearly not happening. So what's up with that?</p>

<p>Sakky, it looks like you tend to conveniently forget things. I posted this before, and I'll post it again.</p>

<p><a href="http://calbears.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/053006aaa.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://calbears.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/053006aaa.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"California was the only team in the Pac-10 (which includes Stanfurd, UCLA, SC, Washington) recognized with national honors by the AFCA. Five schools achieved a rate of 90 percent or better: Boston College, Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame and Southern Mississippi. Cal was among the 23 institutions to graduate 70 percent or better: Auburn, Baylor, California, Cincinnati, Clemson, Colorado State, Florida State, Iowa, Iowa State, Maryland, Miami (Ohio), Nebraska, North Carolina, Penn State, Rice, Rutgers, Syracuse, Texas Tech, Troy, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest and West Virginia."</p>

<p>
[quote]
qw553, that post was so disjointed I don't even know where to begin. The grammar was terrible, the reasoning was worse; I mean, ouch, don't hurt yourself.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Your rebuttal to a "weak" post is an even weaker response? You didn't address any point he made, and honestly: who the hell talks about NCAA academic standards anyway, and who cares? This doesn't change the fact that our football team is in the ****er right now. This whole discussion has been a red herring.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Sakky, it looks like you tend to conveniently forget things. I posted this before, and I'll post it again.</p>

<p><a href="http://calbears.cstv.com/sports/m-fo...053006aaa.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://calbears.cstv.com/sports/m-fo...053006aaa.html&lt;/a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How is this a 'forgetting' of anything? It still doesn't prove the assertion that I am questioning - that 75-80% of the football players are graduating, or that half of the Cal football team has at least a 3.0 GPA. I still have not seen any data that categorically supports these assertions. </p>

<p>I have never disputed that things are better under Tedford than they were under Holmoe, although it's not exactly hard to do better than Holmoe did. But the point is, there are a lot of claims in this thread regarding Cal football's academic prowess of which I have yet to see convincing proof.</p>