Can it be an Excel spreadsheet? 
I believe the original tangent to math problem sets stemmed from a comment about students switching from a major associated with a higher salary to one associated with a lower salary due to not being able to handle calculus.
Iāve mentioned my feelings about how common this is for CS majors at āprestigious collegesā, but some students who have weaker HS curriculums do switch out of majors associated with a higher salary. For example, the study at https://izajole.springeropen.com/track/pdf/10.1186/2193-8997-1-5.pdf looks at major switching behavior at Duke. With full controls, there were 3 variables that had a statistically significant contribution to switching out of a engineering/econ/natural science major ā being female, admissions rating of applicantās HS curriculum, and a variable related to harsher grading of specific Duke classes. With full controls, HS grades and scores were not significant predictors of switching out, but HS curriculum was.
Note that the sample group is quite old, which relates to the relatively low GPAs for āprestigiousā colleges, with median year 1 GPAs in the B+ range. With a larger portion of students receiving Aās today, better support for women in the listed fields, and better support for students from weaker HS backgrounds, I suspect some aspects of the conclusions would be different today. In general, Iād expect fewer students to switch out of the listed majors today. Consistent with this, we often see a smaller difference between freshman and senior survey major distribution than suggested by the old Duke study listed above.
For example, the Class of 2021 Harvard freshmen survey lists the following percentages:
38% Social Sciences
29% Sciences
21% Engineering + Applied Sciences (includes CS)
11% Humanities
And the Class of 2021 Harvard senior survey lists the following percentages:
38% Social Sciences
25% Sciences
20% Engineering + Applied Sciences
17% Humanities
The science majors group appear to have the most switching out, and humanities majors had the most switching in . Pre-med may play a role in why a larger portion of prospective science kids seem to be switching out than other fields. The Duke study did not include life science majors, which may show different patterns due to these pre-med effects.
First off if your data point is based on Stanford, then itās going to be pretty much only valid for a handful of other colleges. The stem kids at Stanford that I know are not even taking Calc, they go straight to another course like Linear or Differential Equations.
Itās not just Calculus, it would be other college level classes all being taken the first time and there the weedout could be based on HS rigor agree, but at Stanford where everyone is getting As and Bs, Stanford wouldnāt weed them out, the kids would probably decide that even though they got a B in OChem or Mechanics or Fields and Waves, they know they need to switch majors.
āAnd yet, it is probably not much harder than calculus or linear algebra.ā
Itās not what is actually harder or easier, itās what adcoms think is harder or easier, and for them Calculus is the harder subject, even over Cambridge set theory.
The comment specifically addressed CS majors switching out due to calculus at āprestigious collegesā, per the title of this thread. Itās not specific to just Stanford or just a small list of other colleges Iāve mentioned in this thread. At which āprestigiousā/āeliteā/Ivy+/top # USNWR colleges do you think a noteworthy portion of CS students are switching out of the major because they canāt handle the calculus requirement?
I donāt know the distinction between CS and other stem or engineering majors but being from upstate NY, I know a lot of friends at Cornell, RPI, CMU that said there was a considerable weed out due to Calculus or a again a combination of Calculus and say Chemistry (which every stem student had to take, at least back then). In the bay area, Iāve talked to Purdue and Berkeley grads who said there was also a considerable amount of weed out, meaning students didnāt have the required GPA for CS or engineering. But again, that GPA is in CS courses and overall GPA, so itās not just Calculus.
āaddressed CS majors switchingā
Itās not switching majors, they actually havenāt declared a major yet, so itās selecting a major that they didnāt want to select, at least when entering college. You canāt declare CS at many places until end of sophomore year I think, outside of the direct admit (EECS at Berkeley).
Purdue does have secondary admission to major for first year engineering students; the college GPA required for automatic admission is 3.2, though most majors are supposedly not that competitive even below that GPA. But note that CS is a separate major that does direct admission; those without direct admission will find it difficult to change into CS.
UCB has direct admission to College of Engineering majors (including EECS), so students just need to stay in good standing (2.0 college GPA), and CoE frosh have a high rate of graduating with CoE majors. Getting into a CoE major if one enters in L&S is very difficult, however.
UCB L&S CS (which does not have direct admission) does require L&S undeclared frosh to earn a 3.3 college GPA in the first three CS courses; calculus is not a course used in calculating this GPA to admit to L&S CS.
Texas A&M is probably a better example of weed-out; it has a system like Purdue, but the automatic admission college GPA is 3.5 (being raised to 3.75), and some popular engineering majors have no space for students other than those who meet the automatic admission GPA. An example of weed-out after direct admission is Wisconsin, since some engineering majors require a 3.3 or 3.5 technical and 3.0 overall college GPA to stay in the major.
Of the schools you listed, I think Cornell and CMU SCS are the ones most likely to be considered āprestigiousā/āeliteā/Ivy+/top USNWRā¦ Both Cornell and CMU admit by school.
Cornell offers 2 CS majors ā one in the engineering school and one in the A&S school. You mentioned a chem requirement, so I suspect you are referring to College of Engineering CS. Cornell Engineering requires high school calculus for admission, and Iād expect that students who are admitted do quite well in this required course. Struggling in HS calculus can certainly be a barrier for admission to Cornell, but students who are enrolled at Cornell have generally passed that filter. So Iād be surprised if the calculus requirement for CS is a big problem for Cornell Engineering CS majors.
Cornell A&S does not require calculus for admission, but at other Ivies as much as 95% of matriculating students report taking calculus in HS and likely do very well in it. I expect the rare few who do not take calculus during HS are unlikely to be prospective CS majors. That said, Cornell A&S CS does have an interesting requirement in that students must have at least a 2.5 average GPA in critical math courses. Taking math classes S/U, and earning a S also meets this 2.5+ GPA requirement. I suppose a rare few prospective CS majors could not be able to earn an S in calculus, but Iād expect this to be quite uncommon. CS has rapidly grown in recent years to become Cornellās most enrolled major, showing no signs of calculus being a noteworthy blocker to the major.
CMU SCS mentions that they recommend students take HS calculus to be admitted, but it is not explicitly required. Perhaps they use they use this phrasing to not exclude kids attending HSs that do not offer calculus. The students who they admit tend to be quite strong in math. Example stats are below. If the class is composed of ~4.0 GPA kids who get a 36 in ACT math and generally take and get an A in calculus during HS, Iād expect the portion who struggle with the calculus requirement for CS majors to be quite small.
CMU SCS Entering Class Stats
Middle 50% Math SAT = 800 to 800
Middle 50% Math ACT = 36 to 36
Average UW GPA = 3.95
Prospective majors. Other posts have discussed this more explicitly.
Calculus may or may not be required for CS. It may or may not even be useful in some subfields within CS. Itās beyond dispute, however, that thereāre some subfields within CS that require a lot more mathematical aptitude than others. This unevenness makes it tricky for a collegeās CS department to set a uniform minimal standard. Many of them (aforementioned Cornell included), seem to have dropped the more math-intensive component of their CS curricular requirements. Iām not sure if itās because they think a) a siginificant portion of their CS students these days are less prepared in math; or b) higher math skills arenāt used by majority of their current CS graduates upon graduation; or c) both.
Pbcparent, I felt the same way. I paid tuition for one of the schools you mentioned, rather than a full ride to a state school. I still think the CS program was better, and opened many doors. If he had a clone that took another path, then I would be in a better position to compare.
What matters to me is that my son has a job he likes.
1 Like
I agree. Work is harder at top schools. Our son at Bowdoin talks to his high school friends who are at all different types of colleges and the kids at highly ranked schools have way more work to do and class is just more intense. Kids are expected to be able to contribute in class. They have to read those crazy long reading assignments and/or do the problem sets that take hours on end because they are held responsible in person in class. And they have to finish them before the next class because they could be called on. Thereās no putting off work (or just blowing it off entirely).
The workload at Bowdoin/Vandy/Wash U/Chicago seems completely different than at Butler/U Minnesota/Indiana U-Kelley (using his friendsā schools as examples).
I would think employers know that students from these top schools are prepared in ways that not all students are at some other colleges. Iām 100 percent sure that there are hard workers and true intellectuals at all schools, but there are also students who glide by at many of them.
As for employment after undergrad, the way I see if is that colleges offer different opportunities via their career centers. Places like Bowdoin (and Colgate where our D21 is headed) lean heavily on alums. Students are introduced early to alums in field that interest them. S19 was introduced to three alums in three different fields that he chose and he had a two hour conversation with each of them. He stays in touch with them and they continue to be responsive and helpful with their advice. These were very successful and influential alums who can help him. Our niece at U of I (Geis) found her internship scouring through listings and sending out a bazillion resumes. Did she find one? Yes, but the process was completely different and certainly thereās no value added for that type of career center.
Bowdoin and Colgate have Bowdoin-only and Colgate-only jobs and internships posted and, while other schools may have this too, the LACs seem to get an amazing level of response from their alums who can really guide students and offer opportunities. I forget the percentage of alums who are part of these programs but itās impressive. S19 also has friends whose parents are also part of the Bowdoin network even though they are not alums. The college reaches out to parents of Bowdoin students and asks for mentors and for parents who have internships and jobs to offer. We feel like these networks make the price we are paying more worth itā¦as long as the kids take advantage of them. And we are insisting on it!
4 Likes
This is what I consider an important differentiator. Not necessarily just because of perceived/actual academic levels, but of certain types of schools in a different sense.
1 Like
Haverford has an alumni directory that D21 has used several times. Could be as simple as āhow did you get into that field / company / etc.ā, or more detailed advice around options / opportunities. Alums are amazingly engaging. She just told us about an alum in our town ('12 or '13 grad) who she is going to have coffee with next week to discuss career progression. Never metā¦found her through the alumni DB. That can happen at larger schools, but the higher folks get in their careers, the less likely they often are to engage based on the sheer volume.
1 Like
But I do think alums from these smaller schools are more willing to engage period. They shared the same small school experience with the same traditions etc and likely also benefited from alums when they were students. I went to Northwestern. Would I help out an NU student? Sure. But Iām not sure my connection to any one student would feel as strong as it does between these LACs alums and students. Thereās something about the smaller school size that lends itself to alums really wanting to help. Itās built into the character of the colleges.
2 Likes
Agree 100%
1 Like
There are studies done on the subject of the strength of the alumni networks.
Notre Dame, SMU, Smith college came out on top on the last survey I saw. Re: the LACās- the surveys show some mixed but not surprising results. There are way, way fewer alums (small schools graduate small classes which produce fewer alums), they have pockets of geographic concentration, AND they have concentrations in specific fields/industries. So super helpful for some career tracks, not very helpful in others.
Not really about the character of the college- an alumna cannot opine about a career in solar technology/alternative energy if she works in ed reform. An alumnus wonāt be helpful getting a meeting for an aspiring screenwriter if he works in labor economics for a prominent Think Tankā¦
4 Likes
I just meant itās embedded in the character of the college that students give back and help when theyāve become alumni. In Bowdoinās case, theyāve got a pretty darn good stock of alums in all industries and geographic areas. Are there more out east? Maybe, but students can definitely find alums almost anywhere. I understand there are fewer alums at small schools but I know a way bigger percent of them actually care and help. I think a Bowdoin alum is way more likely to make a pitch to hire a Bowdoin student than a ND or NU one would exactly because there are fewer of them and they go to bat for each other.
Pure speculation on your part. Iāve seen the alumni networks in action at some schools far less prestigious than Bowdoin and much larger and you would be amazed. No need to compare when you donāt have a base for comparison.
2 Likes
āWork is harder at top schools.ā
Definitely not for stem, Calculus is Calculus as weāve been discussing in other threads, whether youāre taking it a LAC or a public college. And because thereās an actual curve, itās actually harder at the public colleges. If everyone gets As and Bs, regardless of whether they know the material, thatās not hard. Youād actually have more gliders in that system.
Thatās a pretty strong and general statement, anything outside of anecdotes to support this?
"I think a Bowdoin alum is way more likely to make a pitch to hire a Bowdoin student than a ND or NU:
While itās good to pitch for someone, you make it a sound like a cult (and not in a good way), that a Bowdoin grad will select a Bowdoin grad, just because they went there, as opposed to being the most qualified. I know many Purdue, UM, Illinois grads who would recommend alums or for internships, but that was it, after that it was up to the interviews.