As noted in my earlier post, the study didn’t control for stats. So it is unclear whether high stat kids from tier 4 would have different results than overall average of kids from tier 4. My expectation is the high stat kids would have a difference from the average, so I would not assume that their earnings will reflect the average listed in the study. This is also consistent with other studies that have been posted in the threads which did control for stats, and as such, came to quite different conclusions.
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Even the best schools (MIT included) generally prefer that their students go to different graduate schools so they can be exposed to different ideas. Richard Feynman was famously told by the head of the physics department not to stay at MIT for his PhD for his own good.
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Again, what they define as elite is not people consider elite at list on this thread, as others have said. Even if you take just Tier 1, you have Harvard and Syracuse but no Amherst.
I haven’t found this to be the case. I’ve taken classes from at least a dozen colleges and universities - from junior colleges to Stanford, and felt like the degree of difficulty in classes was about the same. The introduction to programming class I had at a nondescript state U was really not much different than beginning programming classes I’ve sat in on at Stanford and Berkeley.
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So private universities from Harvard to Syracuse provide “a substantial premium”? If that’s the case couldn’t one assume that tippy-top private research universities provide a substantial premium?
The only universities you can assume that give a premium would be the ones in the report. There are 40 private RUs on that list, one can’t conclude that #41 gives a premium because it wasn’t considered tier 1 by the researcher(s) and so not included. So it can’t be tippy-top anyway, whatever that means. If you buy into the report, you pretty much have to buy into their definition of Tier 1, 2 and 3. I don’t think you can say this private RU’s acceptance rate is in between Harvard and Syracuse, so it should give the premium. You could I guess, but it wouldn’t advisable to families making a decision around college affordability and payoffs.
@theloniusmonk, I do not think my argument is inherently circular. Let’s talk about universities and not LACs. It is certainly the case that a) not all superstar professors are at prestigious universities; and b) not all professors at prestigious universities are superstars. No disagreement there. But, are you asserting that prestigious universities don’t have a higher concentration of superstar professors than less prestigious universities?
LACs pose a different problem in that they have few superstar professors – people who are an intense research track don’t typically go to teach at Amherst, Williams or Pomona. I know that the top LACs are particularly good feeders of PhD programs generally. However, my recollection is that prestigious research universities PhDs were overrepresented on the faculties of Amherst and Williams (never looked at Pomona). So maybe it is connections to those programs (so PhD programs understand what the rec means) and signaling (PhD programs know about the selectivity of the schools).
Therefore “prestigious universities”, or I assume T20, which would all be included in the study’s Tier 1 grouping, provide a statistically significant premium.
One would presume that all T20 USNWR that are non-LAC and privates would be included in Tier 1, although some are not mentioned in paper’s list, such as Dartmouth. It’s unclear whether this is an oversight by the author, or whether the list of colleges in the paper is not meant to be exhaustive. More concerning is the wide range of selectivities included among the tiers. For example,
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Tier 1 (privates) includes colleges as highly selective as Stanford (~4% admit rate).l but it also includes not as selective colleges like BYU (~70% admit rate) or St. Louis U (~60% acceptance rate)
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Tier 2 (LACs) includes LACs as highly selective as Amherst/Williams (~10% admit rate), but it also includes not as selective colleges like Hartwick (~80% admit rate)
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Tier 3 (publics) includes publics as highly selective as UCLA/UCB (~10% admit ate), but it also includes not as selective colleges like Iowa State (>90% admit rate)
The author frequently uses the phrases like “elite institutions” to describe the selective tiers, but I don’t think most people on the forum would consider colleges like U of St. Louis, Hartwick, or Iowa State as “elite.” Perhaps by “elite” the author more means somewhat selective.
The author finds that under certain conditions and combinations of controls, attending the listed somewhat selective institutions was often correlated with higher average earnings after controls than attending less selective colleges. However, these controls don’t include any measures of student quality, like scores or GPA. Simply limiting to the grouping to students who attended Tier 1-3 for grad school is not equivalent since not all students who attend Tier 1-3 colleges for grad school are identical in measures of student quality. For example, I wouldn’t assume the average kid at Yale law has comparable stats to average kid at St. Louis U Law even though both are Tier 1.
I suspect that the author is instead finding that the average kid who goes from Tier 4 → Tier 1 often has different individual student characteristics that were not controlled for than the average kid who goes from Tier 1 → Tier 1, and these uncontrolled individual student characteristics can influence average income. These uncontrolled characteristics might include things like different average stats, different average family income, and different average average career goals/plans.
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Hmm, I am guessing this research wasn’t published in a peer reviewed journal.
If someone goes from Missouri State (Tier 4) to Northwestern (Tier 1), are they truly worse off than someone going from Iowa State (3) to SLU, BYU or Syracuse (all 1)?
And what about all the NMFs going to flagship and regional universities on full tuition or full cost scholarships? What is their outcome relative to what it would have been at universities 50 spots or more higher up the rankings with more cost?
Went away for the weekend and come back to 80 new posts in this thread. Figured with that much said, the issue must have finally and clearly been resolved. Reading the posts though its just more of the same by the same cast of characters. Maybe anothder 80 posts will finalize resolve it. LOL
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Instead of statistics how about an anecdote? I know a guy who was middle class from a small Midwest town and the son and grandson of farmers and small construction contractors Got into Yale and did well and was encouraged to apply to a top law school. He was hired into his first two legal jobs by people who were impressed by college and law school. The benefits of alumni connections have been many over his career and he clearly has earned well into the top percentile over his career. That guy is absolutely convinced that Yale made the difference in his life and career
That guy was me
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I have plenty of anecdotes….
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I attended grad school at one of our city colleges, which has a very strong reputation in my field. Several of my friends could not handle the rigor and intensity of the program, and were getting low grades. They transferred to what they thought was a “better” school, where they suddenly turned into straight A students and the rigor magically disappeared. As for me and my city college degree? I worked at some of the best health care facilities in the country.
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One of my kids turned down Ivy and Ivy equivalent schools in order to attend a top flagship (OOS). This was initially about finances, as we got FA that no other school would provide. The education she received was phenomenal, and she built an impressive and incredibly strong resume. She is still friends with her professors and speaks with them regularly. Her post graduation opportunities set her up for success (as defined by her).
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My other child attended a regional, instate college. She attended an Ivy League grad school where her professor told her how impressed she was with her undergraduate education. She’s happily employed, living independently (no roommates) in an expensive city, 100% self supportive.
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My daughter’s friend transferred from her Ivy after 2 years because she was very unhappy. She transferred to a “regular” school, was accepted to a competitive gap year program, and was offered a job at a well known institution.
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I have plenty of friends and relatives with kids who attended top private schools (Swarthmore, Hamilton, Colgate, Wellesley, Carleton, Cornell, Harvard, etc). How are they doing? Well…
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one is doing very well as an engineer
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one could not find a job as an engineer until a family friend stepped in
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one is still on the couch 2 years after graduation
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one is in medical school, one is working (attended the same school)
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one went on to a top law school, got a very high paying job, and hated it. Now working in a different area of law, loves it…very low pay
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one returned to his HS retail job, where he remained for 2 years before sending out resumes
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one is currently attending a state school for social work
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another attended a city college for counseling and has a private practice
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one remained in teaching after coming in through an alternate route
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one took a year off, now works a regular 9-5 job in customer service
Some are doing quite well (not necessarily measured by salary) and are happy, while others struggled (and continue to struggle) to figure it out. Others, of course, went directly to high paying careers.
I learned a lot over the years…mostly that there are way too many variables that come into play. My answer? Find a school that works for you, and rock it!
Some graduates from top schools share your story, while some don’t. And there are plenty of kids from “regular” schools who go on to very successful careers.
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The keywords here are “introduction” and “beginning”. While I don’t believe a so-called “top” school necessarily has more rigorous courses, what distinguishes one school from another in terms of course rigor isn’t usually found in introductory and beginner’s courses.
What a more challenging school may offer is the greater opportunity, for those who are interested, to delve deeper into a subject, to be more consistenetly challenged by their peers and professors in their more advanced coursework and research projects, to be more aware of what is constantly involving at the frontiers of knowledge and to be able to approach more readily authoritative sources for questions and discussions that may be enormously beneficial to the students.
Those are some sad “results”. I will say this - getting internships and jobs requires a lot of work on top of all of the work students are doing at school. Summer after freshman year, S19 got a LinkedIn account and started finding Bowdoin alums to “friend”. My husband and I also used our connections to find people who worked in industries that interested him and connected him. He reached out to many, was able to have conversations with quite a few.
He also reached out to professors to tell them what he’s interested in and get their feedback on how to find internships in those fields. One of those conversations led to his internship fall of 2020 when he took a leave of absence from school because of Covid.
Come winter 2021, he and most of his friends spent HOURS talking to alums and friends of parents looking for suggestions on possible internships and filling out long applications which included lining up recommendations.
Success after college isn’t handed to someone who just gets good grades and maybe does a few extracurricular type things during the school year. Searching for internships and jobs or research positions is a whole other thing on the “to do” list and it’s very hard to fit it in with a rigorous course schedule (and, for S19, 70 miles of running for training) but it has to be done.
Editing to add: S19 has plenty of high school friends at T20 schools who now, at the end of their sophomore years, are still working summers at a golf club or retail. They seem to be under the impression that internship-type positions are for after junior year. We’ve found this not to be the case. Of course, there are some that are specifically for rising seniors but starting a more serious search early has to help you down the road when you are older. I’m veering a bit from the topic of this thread but my point is that just going to a prestigious school doesn’t make it more likely to “pay off” - one has to be actively taking advantage of everything available to them to get the biggest pay off.
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Ugh I was hoping not to come across as sad; I was hoping to come across as realistic. There are many “success” stories at all kinds of schools. You are right- nothing is handed to you and success requires hard work. FWIW- the two family members from the same school attended Colgate. One is in medical school and the other is working (twins).
I am also observing a trend. Lots of new grads are going into fields that “make a difference,” but are not necessarily high pay. The top grads I noted who remained in teaching, social work, etc…are perfect examples.
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I guess I just got fixated on the one student still on the couch! I read your post more carefully and looks like a number of those students are doing well. 
Sadly, there will always be kids still sitting on the couch, regardless of school.
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I think what you posted is very realistic. There are always a variety of student outcomes, regardless of school name/prestige. A lot of success has to do with personal qualities that have nothing to do with which college you attend - grit, determination, ambition, people skills etc. You can be brilliant academically but unmotivated (for example, nephews close friend who got a 1600 on the SAT, attended a top school but works a very low paying retail job). While prestige schools can definitely open doors, they aren’t going to walk you through them - that’s on the student.
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Gotta look at the average results with lots of independent variables to determine what’s causing the outcomes. How well regarded are the state and city school alternatives? Does the student want to stay in state after graduation?