The graduate programs are strong and IMO the system is underrated.
Iāve taken intro STEM classes at both Stanford and less selective colleges and completed the pre-med classes. While it may be a common belief among students that it is easier to get Aās at Santa Clara or other less elective college, I wouldnāt assume that to always be the case. The grade distributions are often completely different. In most classes at Stanford and similar colleges with a large concentration of stellar students who sufficiently master the material, the vast majority of students get Aās. In many classes at less selective colleges with a lower concentration of stellar students and students who sufficiently master the material, Bās and Cās are common, and only a small minority get Aās.
A quote from the Stanford senior survey at https://www.stanforddaily.com/2020/06/14/the-class-of-2020-by-the-numbers/#section2 is below. Iām guessing the average GPA for STEM majors at Santa Clara is far lower than the self-reported 3.73 at Stanford . I didnāt find a distribution for Santa Clara online, but the nearby San Jose State had a reported mean GPA of 2.96 in 2015 (see San Jose State University Grading Trends ) ā quite a large difference.
The average reported GPA for seniors was a 3.75, whereas the median GPA was a 3.8. There was only a slight difference in average GPA between STEM majors (3.73) and non-STEM majors (3.79).
But as far as opportunities go, those can be found (or made) at many schools, and in fact may be easier to find at those. My daughter went to U of Wyoming. The senators, governor, US rep (there is just one) are often found on campus, either for talks or just walking around. They attend the football games, they have offices in Cheyenne just an hour from campus. They hire students, they fund projects. The Cheneys sponsor an institute for government and international study. The students are lunching with the aides but with the actual senators.
It might also be easier to be the big fish when you arenāt at Harvard (or Georgetown) for political connections. BYU has a big representation in the state department because BYU students travel the world and speak a foreign language, often before going to college. Pretty good deal on tuition for LDS members too.
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Iām thinking Santa Clara is probably in between SJSU and Stanford, but couldnāt find anything on gradeinflation.com, some private colleges donāt release their data. This is an old article, that I think came on c/c, but hereās the gist of the pre-med students:
"No one knows how long the annual exodus to Santa Clara has been going on, but Jennifer Mason, student services coordinator for Stanfordās biology department, said SCU ā especially the physics series ā is the āthe most popular summer destination.ā
āThe Stanford students go there because itās a guaranteed A,ā said Gerald Fisher, who teaches physics at Stanford and has only 20 Stanford students this summer, compared to more than 100 during other quarters. āThat completely astounds me.ā
āWhatās more, Fisher said, is the Santa Clara instructor āis a high school teacher!ā (Letteer teaches at Sacred Heart Prep in Atherton during the regular academic year; Fisher is a consulting professor at Stanford.)ā
Note, Iām not belittling these Stanford kids for doing this, seems like the right thing to do, especially if helps with stress and course planning. Pre-med is tough even for the stellar students you think are everywhere at these universities. My point more is that Stanford also has GPA protectors, and not composed of kids who love learning or look at education differently.
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I agree with you. My daughter attended a state school where she heard the POTUS speak on campus, (didnāt meet him but sent some great pics) and gave a private tour to the campaign manager of a recent 2020 presidential candidate. Her friend met the Governor and worked with him.
I donāt think this is unique to Harvard. It happens at other schools as well.
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As mentioned in my earlier post, I donāt doubt that many kids believe that if they take a class at a less selective college it is a āguaranteed A.ā However, I think many of these kids may be in for a surprise in some classes when the see the GPA distribution and learn that only a small minority of kids are getting Aās, rather than the vast majority getting Aās like they are used to at Stanford. This difference in GPA distribution makes it less obvious at which college it is easier or harder to get an A.
Considering the average self reported STEM major GPA of 3.73 at Stanford, I donāt think Stanford pre-meds as a whole are having problems getting a high enough GPA to be competitive for med school admission. Stanford students also has other options for students to improve GPA besides going to Santa Clara. For example, I knew one pre-med who would repeat a class if she got an A-, because she thought having all A/A+ grades would be better for med school. She went to Harvard Med School on a special award.
Iām no expert, but I believe I remember reading that medical schools will allow a certain low number of units to be taken away from an applicantās āhomeā university. But the courses and coursework must be an equivalent or ātransferableā and to get approval from your home universityās pre-med advisor before enrolling in the āawayā college.
For example, a āPhysics for Life Science Majorsā course at Michigan is/was the equal of the same course at UCLA.
I donāt understand the big deal about politicians coming to campus to deliver speeches. Donāt they all try to influence potential voters? Sure they may have some interesting stories to tell to justify their handsome speech fees. Theyāre all talking too much but doing too little, arenāt they?
AMCAs, AACOMAS and TMDSAS all required that all college level courses and their grades be reported when applying to medical school, even dual enrollment classes from high school. Plus even if their home institutions allows grade replacement. (ie. removing an old grade from a transcript when the course is taken again), AMCAS, AACOMAS and TMDSAS do not. All grades must be reported even if the original grades has been removed from the applicantās transcript. (See p. 24 of 2022 AMCASĀ® Applicant Guide Both the original grade and the retaken grade will be used to calculate GPAs for a med school application. Furthermore, the retaken class is marked ārepeatedā on all AMCAS transcripts. Retaking an A- grade is sign of grade grubbing and med school adcomms hate that.
(BTW, the penalties for deliberately withholding information of retaken classes can be pretty severeāranging from a delay in the application verification process to being blacklisted from ever applying to med school. And in one very famous case, a medical diploma was actually revoked several years after med school graduation for misrepresenting coursework on their application.)
Iām no expert, but I believe I remember reading that medical schools will allow a certain low number of units to be taken away from an applicantās āhomeā university
This is not true. Every medical school l has its own individual policy regarding courses taken away from the home institution. Itās impossible to make any kind of blanket statement about this. But a number of med schools do include a question on their secondary application that specifically asks an applicant to list any pre-reqs taken at an institution that is not their home institution and to explain (in 150 words or less) why.
When AMCAS reports courses and grades, courses are listed separately by year in college and each different institution is listed separately so itās pretty easy to see if a student is routinely taking āhardā classes at somewhere besides their home institution.
And it doesnāt make any difference whether the course was transferrable to the home institution or not. Student are required to send an individual official transcript from every post-high school educational institution where they have ever attempted classesāeven if they withdrew before the the end of the drop/add period or only audited a class, both cases never generating a reportable grade.
My apologies for the misinformation.
Except this has been going on for years, so kids found out about it from upperclassmen who took the class (SCU or UC or other colleges) or a pre-med advisor said it could be something to consider, and students continued to do it. If it was a tougher class with less Bās than the easy A, few, if any students would do it.
āFor example, I knew one pre-med who would repeat a class if she got an A-, because she thought having all A/A+ grades would be better for med school.ā
That does sound like something a med school would see through as wayoutwestmom points out, but she may have had other things going for her.
One can only guess at how the students mentioned in article heard about the class. However, Iād be quite surprised if a pre-med advisor thought a Stanford pre-med would be too weak in science for an intro freshmen science classes at Stanford (they have a special level of the referenced class for students with weaker scores on placement tests and/or students who favor less rigorous) and instead suggested they take it at Santa Claraā¦ and/or the pre-med advisor assumed that their student would not be among the typically majority of the class who class who receives Aās, such that theyād be better off taking the class elsewhere.
My guess is the far more likely scenario is many students assume that less selective college = easy A. This wasnāt my experience in intro STEM classes at Stanford vs elsewhere. But regardless whether true or not, it is a common belief among students, as well as among persons on the forum.
The vast majority of Stanford students are excellent students who excel academically, put time and effort in their courses, and master course concepts. Such kids are likely to receive Aās in intro STEM classes taken at Stanford, at Santa Clara, and at the vast majority of other colleges. Iām sure most Stanford students who take classes at Santa Clara receives Aās, just as most Stanford students who take classes at Stanford receive Aās. I expect among the minority who receive Bās at Santa Clara, some would use confirmation bias to conclude something along the lines of, āIf I only got a B at Santa Clara, imagine how bad my grade would have been at Stanford.ā However, having only taken the class at only 1 of the 2 colleges, they are not in a good position to evaluate which college would have been easier/harder A. In short, the article does not prove anything about which class is the easier/harder A. It only tells that a small minority of Stanford premeds had strong enough belief that Santa Clara is an easier A to take the class thereā¦ .or at they some did several years ago, back when the article was written.
Some comments from RateMyProessor about the referenced class at Santa Clara are at Guy Letteer at Santa Clara University | Rate My Professors . The first 2 comment state the following, certainly not sounding like an easy A courseā¦ .or one where the majority of kids receive Aās, like in typical Stanford classes.
Fun guy but tough! Exams extend outside what is taught in class so unless you love physics or have a background in it, expect to get a B.
Took Phys 11,12,13 and it is a very challenging course. Tests are tough and some of his exam questions extend outside what he lectures so you wouldnāt know the answer unless you already had a background in physics. I agree that he does care more about the keeping the standard bell curve and his exams are designed to keep that curve. So expect a B.
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So this shows that not all pre-meds make optimal decisions for med school admission. Whether true or not, this particular student believed that repeating an A- course and getting the grade replaced with A/A+ on her transcript was a good idea for med school admission. Whether true or not, some students believed that taking a pre-med course at Santa Clara instead of Stanford was a good idea for med school admission.
Phys 11,12,13 at Santa Clara Univesity canāt be very challenging courses. Credits for all three courses are given if a student has passed AP Physics 1 & 2 with a score of 4 or better.
For nearly every course at nearly any school, thereāre always some students who find the course challenging, even if it isnāt. Besides, some students find physics courses challenging anywhere.
Stanford also gives credit for 4ās. Specific numbers are below. However, I donāt think that a collegeās AP credit policies are a good way to evaluate whether the class is an easy A or not.
4 on Physics C Mechanics = Credit for Physics 21
4 on Physics C E & M = Credit for Physics 23
4+5 on Physics 1 & 2 = Credit for Phsyics 21 + 23
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I actually think AP credit policy for a particular course is a good indication of that courseās overall content and rigor. However, I couldnāt find any course materials (psets, exams, etc.) for these courses online to compare with Stanfordās.
For the pre-med purposes, Iād expect students are more concerned about which class has the better chance of an A, rather than which class has more/less rigor. Stanford has 3 different freshman physics levels, with different levels of rigor. A summary is below. Iād expect Stanfordās āAdvanced Freshman Physicsā is at a higher level of rigor than anything offered at Santa Clara or typical less selective colleges. Stanford gives students the opportunity for a high level or rigor in freshman physics, but only a very small portion of students take that opportunity. Pre-meds general instead take the physics without calculus sequence which has a much lower level of rigor. I donāt have a good sense of how that rigor compares to Santa Clara, but Iād expect to be on a similar level to many far less selective colleges.
Advanced Freshman Physics ā āFor students with a strong high school mathematics and physics background contemplating a major in Physics or interested in a rigorous treatment of physics.ā It lists mastering AP physics as a prerequisite . ā The class was mostly physics majors, with a smaller portion of engineering majors.
Physics using Calculus ā Requires calculus as a prerequisite, as well as taking an additional class about applications for physics. ā The class was mostly taken by engineering majors, with a smaller portion of pre-meds.
Physics without Calculus ā Requires high school trigonometry ā The class was mostly taken by pre-meds, with a smaller portion of non pre-med social science majors.
They used to also offer
Physics for Poets ā Chapters had titles like āE=MC^2 and all thatā with syllabus comments like āTwinkle, twinkle little vector. How I wonder whatās your sector.ā Iām guessing this class was mostly taken by non-technical persons trying to fulfill a general graduation requirement. More recently, theyāve replaced this idea of physics for humanities majors with the 10 series courses, which do not attempt to have similar content to the 3 standard freshman physics sequences above.
Itās common belief because it could be true more often than not, the student at Stanford said Physics was easier at SCU after sitting through some lectures at Stanford and then taking the class at SCU. Meaning the student probably dropped the class after the lectures then figured they could take it over the summer at an easier college. The pre-med advisor has told the students to make sure the courses are taken at a college the caliber of a UC for med school. Also a Stanford student reading that a SCU student got a B would not deter them from enrolling. If your point is that nobody drops classes or looks for an easy professor at Stanford because theyāre exceptional in every subject, thatās not tenable.
A quote from a single student that is selected to further the point of the news article is not a representative sample. For all we know the author of the article talked to 3 kids before her who all talked about how much tougher the Santa Clara course was than they expected, but those quotes were not included because they didnāt further the point of the article.
What we do know more reliably is:
- Several years ago, a small minority of Stanford pre-meds took a summer course (or courses) at Santa Clara. Some of that small minority believed that they had a better chance of getting an A at Santa Clara than at Stanford.
- The overwhelming majority of Stanford course grades are Aās. Stanfordās senior survey reports a mean GPA of 3.73 for STEM majors and 3.79 for non-STEM.
- The vast majority of grades in typical less selective colleges are not Aās. In some colleges, such as SJSU, mean grades are near 3.0. This particular course at Santa Clara may also have a lot of B grades since multiple student comments mention being the class is curved to a B or āexpect a B.ā
- Stanford offers multiple intro physics (and other intro STEM) courses with different levels of rigor. Most Stanford pre-meds choose the lower level of rigor versions, rather than the higher rigor versions of the course.
- Reviews of the Santa Clara physics professor mentioned in the article rate him as an average of 4.6/5 on a difficulty scale, with all reviewers selecting at least 4/5. This is a much higher average difficulty rating than occurs for any Stanford physics professor I checked. 100% of reviews chose the selection indicating that they would not want to take the class with him again.
Stanford has a higher concentration of top academic students who are likely to sufficiently master course content than Santa Clara, so a larger portion of A grades at Stanford are expected. And Stanford students do indeed get a larger portion of A grades than is typical at less selective colleges. The portion of A grades is correlated with the portion of students who do work deserving of A grades. Whether a particular student has a better chance of an A grade at Stanford or Santa Clara is pure speculation. Yes, there were some Stanford students several years who took a course (or courses) at Santa Clara. I expect a much larger portion of Stanford pre-meds took all their courses at Stanford, yet still received primarily A grades. This doesnāt tell us much of anything about which class is the easier A. I suspect which class is the easier A varies depending on things like who is teaching the course and qualities of particular students. Different students taking the same class may have different opinions about whether the class is an easy A or whether easier/harder A than a different college.
Iām not sure how you got that point from my posts since every post Iāve written on this subject has said something completely different, in many cases a near direct contradiction.
Itās not encouraging that pre-med students look for the easiest route to good grades and top med schools arenāt discerning enough to distinguish among those looking for the easy vs challenging route.
It does seem like a commonly asked question among high school students posting on these forums, including aspiring pre-meds, is something like ādo I really have to take [any] physics in high school [for college admission]?ā. Given that, it would not be surprising if many pre-meds fear physics and want to find the āeasiestā high grade in it. Whether or not they are successful is a different question.
It does look like āphysics for biology majors and pre-medsā courses at Stanford have high grade distributions, so it is not clear why a pre-med at Stanford has much to fear from those courses compared to similar physics courses elsewhere. Indeed, a physics-fearing pre-med at Stanford may find that the Stanford coursesā generous grade distributions may make taking those courses at Stanford the lowest risk (of a bad grade), as well as not signaling āgrade grubbing attemptā to medical school admission readers by taking the courses elsewhere.
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