Google recruits at dozens or hundreds of universities, not just the Ivy League ones.
That doesnât sound that uncommon, especially for Orgo, since thatâs supposed to be the class that weeds out pre-med students, and professors of that course think itâs part of their job to do the weeding out. There may also be other weed out courses as weâve discussed on c/c - calculus, chemistry could be another one. Even if weed out doesnât happen officially, it de facto happens even in private colleges, thereâs too many people interested in say pre-med for the number of seats. And in large colleges, especially public ones, youâll get even more weed out, most stem majors have another weed out course, for EEs e.g., its usually Fields and Waves, MechEs have Mechanics., CS would probably be switching theory.
I donât think of NU that way but things could have been that way when you went. Their GPA is at 3.4-ish on gradeinflation.com, Bowdoin a 3.3, but thatâs based on what they have access to publicly so some of those numbers are pretty old. Lot of things like affect overall university GPA so you have to take it really as a general guide.
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You can get decent estimate of Northwestern GPA by looking at the fraternity/sorority GPA reports. For example, the most recent year on gradeinflation is 2015. For 2015, it lists a mean GPA of 3.48. Based on the increasing trend, mean GPA is expected to be ~3.5 in 2016. The report summary lists a mean overall quarter GPA of 3.55/3.52/3.59 and cumm GPA of 3.50 for fraternity + sorority kids. If I assume the fraternity + sorority GPA is ~0.05 more than the overall for the student body, then I get the following mean GPA for Northwestern.
1985 â 3.05 (gradeinflation.com)
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1995 â 3.25 (gradeinflation.com)
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2005 â 3.39 (gradeinflation.com)
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2015 â 3.48 (gradeinflation.com)
Estimated Mean Northwestern GPA Based on Fraternity/Sorority GPA Reports
2016-17 â 3.50
2017-18 â 3.52
2018-19 â 3.48 ( Fall quarter sororities were an abnormally low 3.26, increasing to 3.67/3.70 in Winter/Spring⊠not sure why)
2019-20 â 3.58 (Only fall available)
2020-21 â 3.65 (Only fall available, COVID online probably contributes to GPA increase)
This type of 3.5 to 3.6 mean GPA is reasonably consistent with other private colleges that have a similar concentration of high achieving kids, perhaps a bit on the low side. However, the rate of mean GPA increase seems higher than most other colleges, particularly in the 1985 to 2005 period. This may contribute to why homerdogâs experience differed, assuming he took classes decades ago.
For the purposes of âweedingâ the important measure is grade after the curve, not grade before the curve. If a particular professor curves the class such that the median grade is A-, then a 40% grade could be an A-. Knowing the median % before the curve doesnât tell us much about the median grade after the curve, or if the course is used for âweeding.â
There are a variety of contributing factors . However, i donât think LAC private vs non-LAC private is a major one. As touched on my earlier post, I think the high mean GPA at both Bowdoin and Northwestern has more to do with the colleges having a high concentration of excellent students who are excelling in the course and doing work deserving of a high grade . Highly selective LACs usually give kids mostly A grades and few C grades, just as do highly selective non-LACs privates. The article at The game of grade inflation â The Bowdoin Orient mentions that back in 2007 49% of Bowdoin grades were A and 8% were C or lower. This distribution suggest a ~3.4 GPA, which is similar to Northwestern in 2007. So Bowdoin and Northwestern are likely to also have a similar mean GPA today.
Rather than mean GPA, I think there are some typical differences between LACs and non-LACS include smaller class sizes at LACs, particularly in intro STEM. However, this can also mean fewer different levels of intro STEM sequences to choose from. For example, I only saw 1 intro physics sequence at Bowdoin⊠much less than the choice of 3-4 (depending on definitions) at Stanford.
Use of âweedingâ probably varies among different colleges. Rather than âweedâ weaker students out, many highly selective private colleges make a strong effort to help students from weaker HS backgrounds succeed in intro STEM classes and persist in the major. Iâve noted several examples earlier in the thread. I donât think this is unique to Bowdoin, although the smaller class size may result in more individual attention.
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Itâs likely an outgrowth of grade/test inflation at the HS level. I went to HS with a kid who won the Sears Prize at Harvard both years. Thatâs for the two best in a class, so it seems likely that he finished second in his class (they donât award second) because he didnât win the Fay. He was studious and brilliant in HS too and could âonlyâ pull a 3.9 at a fairly typical above average suburban high school.
At around the same time, a 98th percentile on both sections of the SAT would get you a 670+740=1410. Today that 1410 would be a 1530.
4.0s and âperfectâ 1600s are much more common today. I read somewhere that HS GPAs are up 0.4 point from the early/mid 90s.
With so many kids accustomed to not seeing an A- through HS, giving someone a A- rather than a B or B+ takes some of the sting out of it.
Bowdoin appears to use committee letters for med school applicants (not all schools do this). Although I do believe students can apply without one (if the school uses committee letters), wouldnât this be considered a form of âweedingâ since there is some type of ranking involved?
I do not have data as to how many are accepted without a committee letter (if their school offers one). AndâŠif a student takes one or more gap years (which has become increasingly common) maybe a committee letter no longer matters (students can still get recommendations from profs).
I agree that there is some level of âweedingâ at most schools. It doesnât stop after collegeâŠit keeps going!
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Bowdoin does use committee letters, but they donât gatekeepâŠmeaning all students applying to med school get committee letters, there isnât a GPA and/or MCAT cutoff. A group of five faculty and two pre-health advisors prepare the committee letter writing (itâs really a packet), so itâs very thorough. There might be situations where the committee might communicate to an applicant that they arenât competitive, need to do an SMP program, and/or do patient facing work for a couple of years. But, AFAIK, anyone who wants a committee letter gets one.
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Most med school students are in the top 5% intellectually not merely âabove averageâ(implies 70th-85th %ile); plenty are the >99%ile type. Even though we may not use core courses in physics calc chem bio on a daily basis once we are in practice, to get into med school and then pass the Boards (in med school and residency), one absolutely has to have a mastery of these subjects, and the daily decisions we make are based on interpreting and analyzing information on a much higher level than the basic science courses teach. There is a reason it is 4 yrs of medical school then 3-7 years of residency: it takes a long time to layer on all of the different levels of understanding of the human body, and it is very challenging to learn it all, even for those of us who are top 1% âsmartiesâ. Donât knock it unless you have done it.
On the topic at hand: in my opinion my prestigious degree was absolutely worth it and the high rigor of coursework surrounded by a high percentage of smart students to motivate each other, as well as an impressive success rate of the premed advising increased our chances to to well on the MCAT and get in to medical school. It is impossible to know because most of us only attended one college, but after I was in med school, those who came from less-rigorous colleges in general had a much harder time.
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And Iâll bet a good chunk of those medical students have gained mastery in non-STEM areas/majors, since not every med student is/was a STEM major.
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On the other hand, not all committee letters will be equally strongâŠ
Perhaps the primary value of the pre-med committee to the pre-med is the increased advising contact, including informing the pre-med of the chances of getting into a medical school, so that a pre-med with poor chances can switch to other plans instead of wasting a lot of time and money futilely applying to medical schools.
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Or go the DO route which is easier to attain.
Iâm not trying to disparage the medical profession. I married one. She sits on the adcom on a selective but not top med school. Thanks to the pandemic, her at home interview space is 15 feet from my work space. So you could say Iâm a fly on the wall.
I would agree that MDs come from the smartest 5% of the population. I donât equate IQ with intellect, but if we were to do so the threshold for being a doc would be 125. Above average, but not brilliant or anything. The vast majority of professions donât require anything more than that. CEOs, attorneys, accountants, professors in most specialties, etc. Iâm in one of those buckets btw. You need some level of intelligence, grit and emotional maturity. But weâre not talking theoretical physics or mathematician level stuff.
Boards are tough no doubt. The comprehensive training to become an MD is tough. But my point about job requirements is that a lot of the comprehensive portion of the training falls by the wayside when weâre talking about clinical practice. You simply donât need to know it. Which is why people need to brush up every time the recertify. Some specialties are an inch wide and mile deep. Some are a mile wide and an inch deep.
My wifeâs primary specialty is pretty broad and deep (peds ICU). There is less subspecialization compared to adult, so you need to know neuro, cardiac, etc rather than one. The courses of treatment arenât as well trodden as adult. There are only so many ways a 70 year old exits the earth. With kids, thereâs more diversity, so you need to be a bit more inventive and they are less researched. There is also a world of difference between treating a 6 month old, 6 year old, 17 year old and even a 40 year old in a peds unit. The 40 year old is in peds because they had a heart defect repaired at 10 that adult cardiac surgeons have no idea how to repair/treat.
The consistent mantra of residents rotating through peds ICU is, âWow. This is the first place Iâve had to put all of my education together and actually use it.â
I donât hate doctors. By they arenât intellectual giants and we sometimes place them on pedestals they donât deserve. At the same time, we should really do a better job of listening to them on the stuff they know about. Thatâs a different topic though. Hope that clears it up.
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It is that. But it is also brand management. They donât want unqualified applicants leaving a bad institutional impression on med schools on the chance it creates bias against their more qualified undergrads.
I think this type of requirement far more relates to the med school admission process than requirements to be successful on the job. Very few other professions have this degree of gatekeeping.
For example, a student with a not top % LSAT score can go a law school⊠maybe not a top ## USNWR ranked law school , but he/she can still have the job title of attorney. Or a student with a not top % SAT score can still be an engineer. He/she may not be accepted to MIT, but many students with not top % SAT scores do make it through the major and become successful engineers. However, a student with a not top MCAT score has far fewer options. He/she runs a good risk of being shut out completely from med schools. There are other options in the medical profession that may do similar types of work, but he/she wonât have the MD title.
This distinction is often reflected in comparisons between test optional test submitter admits at test optional colleges. Both groups often have similar GPAs in college including when controlling for major, similar graduation rates in college, and similar other metrics of success in their bachelorâs program. However, they usually have very different rates getting a MD. The lower score can act as a notable barrier.
Some specific numbers for Bates are at https://www.bates.edu/admission/files/2014/01/25th-Year-SAT-report-Stanford-6.3.11-wch.ppt . 38% of Bates students were test optional overall. 34% of bio majors were test optional, suggesting a similar degree of interest in medicine between test optional and test submitter kids. The average GPA was approximately the same between test submitter and test optional, so I have no reason to assume a large difference in GPA between test submitter and test optional bio majors. However, only ~10% of MDs were test optional admits . The bio majors who become MDs seem far more likely to be test submitter kids. Test submitter Bates alumni dominated MDs more so than any other type graduate degree. A not great score can be a major barrier for med school admission and prevents many kids from becoming MDs. Once passing that med school admission barrier, far fewer MDs are filtered out from a job requiring a âdoctorâ title due to not having sufficient intellect or similar (I realize certain specialties and job placements are more selective than others and have another level of selection).
Ya, but can and do the theoretical physics and mathematician folks work a 24-hour shift under enormous amounts of life and death pressure everyday on their job? 
Thereâs an fitness/sport/exercise analogy, but I wonât bore you/everyone. IMO, as you mentioned above, an MD will need a wide breadth of knowledge, but may not be an expert in anything. Jack of all trades, but an expert in none. However, to me, thatâs a âspecialtyâ all unto itself (i.e., knowing a lot of info in many areas).
You probably mean that SAT/ACT (that is optional at Bates and other colleges) correlates to MCAT in terms of test-taking strength, and therefore the presumed-weaker test-takers who were admitted to the college without test scores did worse on the MCAT and therefore worse in medical school admissions, rather than that the SAT/ACT is itself relevant to medical school admissions, right?
Wouldnât the âwideâ ones (of varying depth) include any of the primary care specialties, plus emergency medicine, where a patient may come in with just about anything?
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Or it could mean that SAT/ACT test submitters are on average better students (in the sense that they receive better grades in college in courses that medical schools require) than non-submitters.
Yes, the correlation between SAT/ACT score and MCAT score is relatively high. Students who do well/poorly on one test also tend to do well/poorly on the other.
The link from my earlier post mentions a cumulative mean Bates GPA of 3.16 for submitters vs 3.13 for non-submitters â no significant difference. Itâs certainly possible that the GPA in courses med schools require had much larger differences than overall or pre-med kids had much larger differences than overall, but I think itâs likely a more influential factor is MCAT scores. I think it is far more likely that kids whose SAT/ACT was a weak point of their college application compared to HS grades + other factors, also tended to have a MCAT score that was a weak point of their med school application compared to college grades + other factors.
I think SAT/ACT, MCAT, and grades in courses medical schools require are all positively correlated. Students in the STEM courses that medical schools require all have to go through many tests/quizzes, often in a competitive environment.