<p>I second the poster who recommended an online calculator, like the one on Princeton's website, that will easily let the parents know how much financial aid they can expect to receive given their income and assets. As things are now, it's like flying in the dark. It's important for families to know what they can realistically afford before encouraging their children to apply. Higher ed could take a lesson from the used car lot: post the sticker price and allow some room for negotiation down the road.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Don't expect colleges to get rid of them any time soon.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sadly, I don't. We're just talking "wish lists" :)</p>
<p>So, here's another thought: if admission folks won't ditch the supplements, maybe they can at least amend those "Why Did you Pick This School?" essay assignments. As a college counselor, I'm tired of seeing students write such responses as if they were playing Mad Libs (e.g., "I like this school because the size is ____________ . I also prefer a campus that is close to ____________ and where the weather is ______________. " )</p>
<p>So here's what I propose ... that essay prompt should be revised to look something like this:</p>
<p>If you have a truly compelling reason for choosing this college, one that makes you feel that this is indeed an ideal match for you, please tell us what it is. Use as many (or few) words as required. We will not be counting characters, with or without spaces. Warning: This question should not be answered by 98.5% of our applicant pool, and if you are among those masses and answer anyway, it may be held against you. ;)</p>
<p>I know many will disagree, but I think an interview process would be one of the best ideas. After one submits everything, then 3-5 members of the board will travel around the US and interview each candidate. Ask questions about essays or ECs. Get a real feel for why the applicant chose to apply there. Also, the interviewer(s) could ask, if we accept you, will you go.</p>
<p>Then at the end of the interview, you get your decision right then and there. It seems like a quick way for the school to build a diverse and interesting class with kids who really want to go.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think high schools can help by having a standard form of calculating GPA. I prefer the European system of giving grades of 1-10, with 10 being the highest. If schools standardized GPA, comparing students would be much easier. There should also be a standard system of weighting for AP/IB/honors courses.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The problem with JBVirtuoso's post is that even if every highschool had the same standards of calculating GPA, it would still be unbalanced in terms of comparing students in different highschools. As we all know, some high schools are a lot more rigorous that others, so getting a certain GPA in one school might be easier/tougher than another. I think the SAT is probably the best way to compare students with each other because it's the same test that everyone takes.</p>
<ol>
<li>Eliminate affirmative action. Period. No race-based considerations, no socioeconomic considerations. Admit the most qualified. If impossible, eliminate whining from kids who don't get into HYPS about affirmative action.</li>
<li>One would only be allowed to take the SAT Reasoning Test and ACT three times in two years (i.e. no more than 1 SAT and 2 ACTs or 2 ACTs and 1 SAT.) Average out the top two scores in each subject.</li>
<li>Non-academic extracurriculars should be ignored. You may volunteer 700 hours at the soup kitchen, and that's admirable, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the 'life of the mind.' Of course, this is opposed to academic extracurriculars like performing research.</li>
<li>Eliminate boost in admissions to athletes.</li>
<li>Increase relative importance of standardized tests to grades by a very significant amount (2 to 1, perhaps.)</li>
<li>Establish a national program of fee waivers for AP exams so as to eliminate the equity argument against considering them in admissions.</li>
<li>Similar to what NorthEastMom suggested, you could have an option on your application to allow your GPA and test scores to be released to other institutions. These institutions would probably be lower-tier schools who would purchase ranges of GPA/test scores and then offer admission and merit aid in convincing one to come. </li>
<li>Eliminating the supplements in the Common Application would be a good step. </li>
<li>I like skyhook's suggestion of a common interface.</li>
</ol>
<p>jkterrapin, it seems like an attractive idea, but studies show that interviews are unreliable methods of predicting job productivity, so I see no reason to suggest they would be any more reliable as a predictor of college success.</p>
<p>bartleby, you appear to favor a much greater emphasis on objective measures of academic achievement, especially standardized test scores. One of the things that I have enjoyed most about attending a top school is the enthusiasm with which my peers approach not only their studies, but their extracurricular activities as well. I wouldn't want to be at a school where students didn't do anything but study. Could you explain why you don't feel that a student's soft qualities (personal characteristics, EC's, etc.) are worth selecting for?</p>
<p>^They don't have to predict success, just a diverse interesting atmosphere of intellectually driven and happy students. (A student's paradise if you will).</p>
<p>Ok, here are my changes (just a few changes to bartelby's, plus a couple of my own.</p>
<ol>
<li>Eliminate racial AA, keep socieo-economic. HOWEVER, if creating a diverse community means taking the best minorities and having them compete, so be it.</li>
<li>One would only be allowed to take the SAT Reasoning Test and ACT three times in two years (i.e. no more than 1 SAT and 2 ACTs or 2 ACTs and 1 SAT.) Average out the top two scores in each subject. No averaging. Superscoring.</li>
<li>Make interviews/essays/supplements as important as GPA. So if GPA makes up 30 percent then interviews can make up 7 percent, more supplements can make up 7 percent, and essays can make up 16 percent. Something like that. </li>
<li>Decrease boost in admissions to athletes.</li>
<li>Increase relative importance of standardized tests to grades by a significant amount (not a lot, lot though).</li>
<li>AP Exams are not consdered in admissions, SAT II exams have more significance and are offered in more areas. </li>
<li>Similar to what NorthEastMom suggested, you could have an option on your application to allow your GPA and test scores to be released to other institutions. These institutions would probably be lower-tier schools who would purchase ranges of GPA/test scores and then offer admission and merit aid in convincing one to come. </li>
<li>I like skyhook's suggestion of a common interface.</li>
<li>Make cost a predictable calculator much like Princeton's.</li>
<li>Increase importance for special abilities (knowing 6 languages, being a top athlete, being number one math student on earth etc).</li>
<li>You can only apply to one Ivy.</li>
<li>You can only apply to 10 schools (15 if salary is below a certain amount)</li>
</ol>
<p>If #s 1 and 3 from IR09's post were implemented, my life would be so much easier. I'm an interview extraordinaire, if I do say so myself, and i really wish it could give me an edge. But since 99% of them are non-evaluative, I'm **** outta luck :(</p>
<p>and #1 would keep URMs with lesser scores from beating out male caucasians like myself haha</p>
<p>Let's not go down the whole, "URMs with lower scores beat out more qualified caucasian applicants" road again. You never know what a college could be thinking, and you don't know if their scores are lower than yours. I think you were joking, but some people are deathly serious when they say that, unfortunately.</p>
<p>Haha definitely not deathly serious, but also not entirely joking. Let's just say that I don't like the fact that being a Native American can be considered a "hook" or a "plus." I'm fine with ethnic diversity, as long as academic equality is still intact.</p>
<p>"11. You can only apply to one Ivy."</p>
<p>How un-enforceable is this? Talk about collusion and anti-trust violations!</p>
<p>Finally regarding diversity issues (ethnicity, athletics, etc.): schools try to project their image. If diversity is part of it, then they can cherry pick however they choose. If the student as consumer doesn't like what the vendor (college) is offering, they can opt out and go to other vendors who don't weight for athletics, ethnic or socioeconomic diversity. They certainly exist. However you can't have your cake and eat it too. "I want to go to Ivy X but I don't like that they give weight to 'diversity' factors". Well, Ivy X wouldn't be Ivy X unless they continued to build its student body the way it has. Just my two cents.</p>
<p>So, I'm probably shooting myself in the foot by inviting more competition for this scholarship, but I love a challenge. I just applied for this scholarship that will award $1K to the student with the best ideas to improve the college admissions process. Thought you might want to know about it. Hope this helps some of you:</p>
<p>Scholarships</a> for Students Frustrated With College Admissions | myUsearch blog</p>
<p>
[quote]
Haha definitely not deathly serious, but also not entirely joking. Let's just say that I don't like the fact that being a Native American can be considered a "hook" or a "plus." I'm fine with ethnic diversity, as long as academic equality is still intact.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It seems to me that you are one of those CC'ers who has latched onto the whole notion of one applicant being "more/less qualified" than another applicant. I just want to point out that this notion is a myth. Colleges see being qualified as a boolean: an applicant is either qualified or not.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Eliminate racial AA, keep socieo-economic. HOWEVER, if creating a diverse community means taking the best minorities and having them compete, so be it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Socio-economic affirmative action is already being practiced via holistic admissions. If you are advocating that you believe colleges should take class into consideration I suggest that you reconsider those wishes especially if you value diversity. This sort of socio-economic affirmative action would make universities more white and greatly decrease the number of minorities--especially Asians--in general since white people make up a plurality--maybe even majority--of our nation's poor and working class families.</p>
<p>Newjack, I'm not saying a Native American with zero qualifications or even <em>slightly</em> less qualifications will always get in, but look at it this way:</p>
<p>Do you honestly believe that if two candidates were similar in almost every respect (scores, grades, ECs, etc) but that ONE candidate was a URM, while the other was white, that the URM wouldn't get preference?!</p>
<p>I find that haaaard to believe.</p>
<p>From bartleby</p>
<p>
[quote]
3. Non-academic extracurriculars should be ignored. You may volunteer 700 hours at the soup kitchen, and that's admirable, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the 'life of the mind.' Of course, this is opposed to academic extracurriculars like performing research.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That is absolutely ridiculous. So you propose to ignore athletes, musicians, humanitarians, entrepreneurs, and artists?</p>
<p>From IR</p>
<p>
[quote]
4. Decrease boost in admissions to athletes.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
10. Increase importance for special abilities (knowing 6 languages, being a top athlete, being number one math student on earth etc).
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<p>Other than 4. and 10. being contradictions, I have a few comments. First, I assume you're talking about recruited athletes? Why should athletes have any less of a chance than another person? Athletics (when I say athletics I mean a decent team - not some crappy D5 team) requires just as much as, if not more dedication and effort than many other EC's. Maybe if a star athlete were as dumb as an ox, then that should be taken into consideration. But athletes add something to the school and bring in money. Who wants to go to a school with terrible sports teams and kids who do nothing but study?</p>
<p>
[quote]
6. AP Exams are not consdered in admissions, SAT II exams have more significance and are offered in more areas.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First of all, AP exams cover many more subjects than SAT II's. Second, AP exams should count to some extent. What's to be said about the kid with an A+ in an AP class who got a 1 or 2 on the exam? Challenging yourself by taking AP classes is not enough. You need to pass the AP exam to show you're competent.</p>
<p>
[quote]
11. You can only apply to one Ivy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why the Ivies? There are plenty of other good schools. Why not restrict admission to them too? This just decreases the quality of the applicants at a given school. If you're not Ivy caliber, you're not Ivy caliber. Period.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Actually they don't. How would a college be able to decide whom to give merit aid or send likely letters to if they didn't view qualification as a continuum?</p>
<p>Newjack, I'm not saying a Native American with zero qualifications or even <em>slightly</em> less qualifications will always get in, but look at it this way:</p>
<p>Do you honestly believe that if two candidates were similar in almost every respect (scores, grades, ECs, etc) but that ONE candidate was a URM, while the other was white, that the URM wouldn't get preference?!</p>
<p>I find that haaaard to believe.</p>
<p>My dd is Texas Mex and a very small percentage Native American. She had fantastic grades, SAT's AP's and team sports, along with research experience at UCSD. She applied to 15 schools and got into 7 public uni's. Rejected at the UC's (except SD) so the theory that the colleges would pick her over other non-ethnic students doesn't fly; several of her peers with questionable credits but more team experiences did get in.</p>
<p>"11. You can only apply to one Ivy."</p>
<p>Admissions would be worse than they already are if other people felt it was fair to limit to which schools students were allowed to apply. This is the United States of America and anyone should be allowed to apply wherever he/she wants.</p>
<p>Also, race should not be a factor in regard to admissions decisions. Why not take a diverse set of the most qualified students? Just because students come from different backgrounds, it does not necessarily mean that the overall student body will be interesting or diverse. Use talents and interests as a way to make the campus diverse.</p>
<p>In regards to athletics being a hot topic of concern, I do not think that people should be as up in arms about sport recruiting as they are. For one reason, overall, there cannot be all that many students recruited from each school since most teams are all relatively small in the first place and because teams cannot be made up entirely of incoming freshman. The other thing about recruited athletes that most people fail to notice is that once going to a school, any student, whether s/he are an athlete or not, must somehow be able to take classes and do at least average work in order to graduate.
If heavy amounts of musicians were being recruited for school bands and orchestras there would not be this type of outrage. Underlying all of the negative comments made in regard to athletic recruiting is the idea that athletes are not as academically inclined as other students. Many athletes I know are very intelligent, especially ones that are going to top schools. Schools only take students, athletes or nonathletes, who they believe are able to keep up with the academics. Athletes are also some of the most diligent people I know. Above all, an athletic talent is a skill just like any other that can be contributed to a school. If anything, it is a very hard decision to be a recruited athlete. Most clubs and other activities in which students will participate are certainly not as physically taxing.</p>
<p>Lastly, I think that students should have to document on their applications whether or not they consulted some sort of private "college coach" or admissions counselor. There are enough instances of helicopter parents, inflated grades, and brown nosers in my achievement-driven generation. These "helpers" can make students more appealing to colleges, and if used, they should be acknowledged, just as in most work where resources used must be cited.</p>
<p>I would some sort of GPA calculator for each college, or a standard one for all colleges. My school uses a strange system out of 4.5 with no minuses, and I am not entirely sure if every college considers honors classes as weighted.</p>
<p>I would also like financial aid calculators, and greater financial aid for the upper-middle class.</p>