The Perfect College Admissions Process: YOUR Version

<p>I am so impressed with this thread! I really like a number of the suggetions, especially Bartleby's and theGFC's points regarding EC mania, over-emphasis on gpa.</p>

<p>I hate the over-emphasis on gpa especially. It turns high school into a very rough experience for many kids and grading is inevitably very subjective. I strongly favor increased emphasis on standardized testing and decreased emphasis on grades. Unfortunately, the opposite seems to be the trend.</p>

<p>I also strongly oppose the EC mania going on, the need for adolescents to distinguish themselves at a national or international level to be viable at selective schools. The problem with this is that the wealthy are extremely advantaged. Music, dance, art, sports, just about everything takes money and time these days. EC focus advantages the advantaged more than EA ever did, IMO.</p>

<p>When I first came to CollegeConfidential a year or so ago, I thought a lot was wrong with college admissions. It's so chaotic, subjective, time-consuming...</p>

<p>Then the chaos started to grow on me. It's so, well, so American. Different school choose for different attributes, and that now seems OK to me. We have ultra-liberal schools, and ultra-jock schools. We have huge schools and tiny we'll-hold-your-hand schools. Intense academic schools and start the weekend on Wednesday night schools. We have schools that one look on Naviance will show you that their admissions decisions are SAT based, and others that are GPA focussed.</p>

<p>It's sort of like dating. Yeah, there is a general trend in desirability (yay, George Clooney) but actual matches are made in quirky and mysterious ways. Applying to college is just warm-up for trying to figure out the right match in employment.</p>

<p>All that said, I think public (state) schools have a much greater ethical responsibility to provide information and be transparent about admissions than they are currently doing.</p>

<p>I think someone posted this point earlier in the thread but I'd like to
add my vote for it.</p>

<p>can anyone link me to the Princeton calculator mentioned by whatever4?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

<p>Anyone with 11 characters in there first and last name whose first name is Matt should be autoaccepted to any school.</p>

<p>Royal Rumble of all the students who wants to get into the school, your seed into the rumble is based on a ranking system based on one score decided by the culmination of GPA/SAT's/EC's and everything considered by the school. </p>

<p>This way, the kids who deserve to get there combined with the ones who really want to be there (aka the ones who will work the hardest there) will be accepted.</p>

<p>"Do you honestly believe that if two candidates were similar in almost every respect (scores, grades, ECs, etc) but that ONE candidate was a URM, while the other was white, that the URM wouldn't get preference?!</p>

<p>I find that haaaard to believe."</p>

<p>Then ask yourself this. What are the chances that the white student, who has been provided with much more resources and tools to go far in life, would not get another chance somewhere else? or could pay their way through by other means? What are the options of the URM? ... PPl arent just labeled URM just to get a quicker spot in great colleges you know...there is a story behind it.</p>

<p>Think about that the next time you bash AA...think about the way society runs, rather than the seat you could have gotten ...that may go to someone who have fewer options and guidance to get to that seat. </p>

<p>Anyway...sorting hat..lol pretty clever.</p>

<p>Why does the UPPER middle class need financial aid? Because it is inconvenient for them to put a kid thorugh school when said kid doesnt get a job or take out a loan? That's utterly ridiculous. Financial aid should go to those who need it most.</p>

<p>Determind: A millionaire black person is still a URM, and I'd say that they are granted more resources than a middle class white person. That said, the millionaire black would get preference.</p>

<p>I agree that the EC system needs to be revised. All considering ECs does is lead to resume padding. It's funny how people volunteer for all these things during their high school years, then once they get into college, stop. Now, I'm not saying academic accomplishments shouldn't matter, they should, but that needs to be it.</p>

<p>
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Financial aid should go to those who need it most.

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</p>

<p>At some schools, it's not a zero sum game. Harvard and Princeton already offer free rides to students with families making less than $60,000 a year (as well as very substantial aid to those in the 60-100k range), so why not increase aid for the upper middle class?</p>

<p>For the person who asked for the link to the Princeton financial aid estimator: <a href="https://sweb.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/FinAid/finaid_form.pl%5B/url%5D"&gt;https://sweb.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/FinAid/finaid_form.pl&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
I hate the over-emphasis on gpa especially. It turns high school into a very rough experience for many kids and grading is inevitably very subjective. I strongly favor increased emphasis on standardized testing and decreased emphasis on grades. Unfortunately, the opposite seems to be the trend.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, GPA is a much better assessment of what a student has achieved in high school and is one of the best predictors of college success than test scores are.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I agree that the EC system needs to be revised. All considering ECs does is lead to resume padding. It's funny how people volunteer for all these things during their high school years, then once they get into college, stop. Now, I'm not saying academic accomplishments shouldn't matter, they should, but that needs to be it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What I think you need to ask yourself is how many students who pad their resumes succeed in gaining admission to their dream schools. I would say few. I think that, generally, elite schools like Harvard, Stanford, etc. do a great job of weeding out the phony kids.</p>

<p>Also, while some students merely pad their resumes, some kids become passionate about the activities they join. Moreover, even if a kid just does something for the sake of doing it, he or she will more often than not take away a life lesson/leadership skills/knowledge/etc. from participating in that activity.</p>

<p>Lastly, most of the kids who get into Harvard and such where ECs are an important part of the admissions process, typically, continue doing community service.</p>

<p>I think this thread would be a bit more productive if people thought through some of their suggestions.</p>

<p>Titan124:</p>

<p>That's not even how affirmative action works...</p>

<p>Determind15:</p>

<p>Affirmative action is merely about diversity nowadays. Talking about past events like slavery and such really do not belong in today's debate over affirmative action. The debate today is whether or not being a particular race/ethnicity has a significant impact on a person's life/academic career.</p>

<ol>
<li>I think the SAT should be discontinued and there should be a free federal testing system consisting of tests almost identical to the SATIIs. </li>
<li>All colleges should require a minimum of five of those, covering the five main school subjects - math, science, english, history, and a foreign language. Elite colleges can require more as needed. </li>
<li>The tests should be offered twice a year and taken during/after taking the class. </li>
<li>A recommendation from an adult who knows the student in an extracurricular setting should be included in the application process. </li>
<li>That rec, the transcript, and the test scores should be submitted to colleges. </li>
<li>Then, the admissions committee should weed out some and group interview the rest. The interview should have right and wrong answers, much like a job interview. The student should expect academic questions, especially relating to his/her field of study. (ex. want to study political science - should have a basic understanding of political systems, etc.). Questions about the students' EC's should be included as well. </li>
<li>Then decide who gets in/does not. </li>
<li>Those from disadvantaged backgrounds (zipcode, school, parents' education, raised by a single parent, income) should be given leeway in the way of standardized test scores, but not in terms of GPA. The student's talent, ambition, love for learning, and zeal for life should come through in the interview process.
No legacy/donation BS included in the admissions process.</li>
</ol>

<p>I think this thread has to some extent become caught up in what might be feasible within the parameters of the current system and not actually delineating what would constitute a truly ideal admissions process. I hope this post can try to rectify that gap.</p>

<p>We should begin by completely scrapping the existing admissions system and then attempt to build a model of the best system from the perspective of the college and then the student or applicant; and only then to merge these to suggest a model that might be acceptable to both parties.</p>

<p>Let’s begin then from the perspective of the college and its admissions office. The college is foremost seeking to build a community that will reflect most highly upon itself as an institution and in turn attract better applicants. The term “reflect most highly upon itself” is rather ambiguous, and in my opinion superficial, because it aims for the appearance of success, not success itself. This is a problem that hits deeper than just the admissions process; but I am going to presume for the purposes of this argument that a college will be more interested in creating a community that is supportive of its members and allows them to achieve “success” and enjoy their time at college; while enabling the faculty to conduct the research needed to produce intellectual capital. Students—in this limited perspective—are investments by which colleges can hope to gain future fame and immediately can help assist (and fund) professor’s research (this is even true for most selective small liberal arts colleges, even if the admissions brochures don’t advertise research).
In order to select applicants to achieve this, a college wants as much information as possible about a student. There are two obvious ways that a college can evaluate academic suitability: i) its faculty interview students and test their suitability to help research in a given concentration or gain success in their field of expertise ii) the college can rely on outsider’s opinions of a students ability (in the form of test scores, high school transcript, etc.). As a university, I would be most willing to trust the opinion of my faculty over the opinion of various other individuals and organizations who may not be most interested in my school’s welfare. Similarly, in order to judge social suitability (I envisage this including things such as extracurricular activities and character) the opinion of current students should be preferred in making judgments instead of marketed advocacies for the student (teacher recommendations, activity lists).</p>

<p>Therefore, for the university, the ideal college application process consists of faculty interviews and tests of students (most likely including essays) and an interview by a student social fit committee. Both groups would produce a list of the applicants they were most interested in and would like to accept to the college. A joint committee of administrators, students, and faculty would then meet to reconcile the two lists and ultimately select the incoming class.</p>

<p>We should next consider what a student would like as the ideal application process. It seems to me that the top students are mostly concerned with attending a school with an atmosphere conducive to their learning with general student qualifications slightly beyond where they truly believe themselves to rank as applicants (i.e. the student qualified for Amherst wants to go to Princeton, etc.). Without going into the logic of this choice, we should try to design the system that best caters to these needs. This means that students need to control the image they present to a college while gaining as much information as possible about the colleges thoughts about them as an applicant. This means that students would like as much latitude as possible in what information they would like to submit to a college, and receiving timely (dare I say immediate) responses from colleges concerning their admission status.</p>

<p>This translates to a system in which a given applicant selects maybe three or four items to a college for evaluation. This would be something like a taped musical performance or an essay or a sample of graded work or a SAT score. The college would then be forced to accept all of these types of work equally (and always select this or that particular applicant trying to overachieve, while rejecting others to maintain prestige). Additionally, a student wants his or her peers to be equals academically and socially, making an exciting living environment.</p>

<p>A student would also likely like the opportunity to “trade” admission decisions with other applicants to allow applicants accepted to each other’s dream schools to both be happy. There would necessarily be some protocol by which these acceptances would be exchanged, although the specifics don’t concern us now.</p>

<p>The remaining task at hand should be to combine the colleges and the students’ ideal admission processes to create an acceptable balance. I am admittedly uncertain how this will work, however, I think it would be best to use the framework from the colleges’ perspective and tweak it to make it more applicant-friendly.</p>

<p>I think the initial process will have to begin by a screen by an admissions committee that will consider the materials an applicant elects to send within the following categories: 1 academic evaluation (test scores, graded essay, transcript); 1 creative item (taped performance, personal statement, poetry, etc.); and an additional item of the students choice. This is meant to be a very broad screen and thus any applicant with reasonable credentials should pass to the second stage of the process. The first stage of the process should be completed on a rolling basis with word of entry to the second stage coming within three weeks of the application.</p>

<p>The second stage will consist of interviews with faculty members in the students intended major and one other field (the student should be given the chance to select this field and know who will be interviewing him or her well in advance of the interview). This interview can include discussion of written work submitted at the request of the faculty, a discussion of books the applicant has read in the field, or be of some other academic nature at the discretion of the faculty. After this interview, the student will have a second interview with a group of students to evaluate the social fit at the school. After these interviews are complete, the student should receive written feedback on the committees views of their performance, the same form should be placed in the applicant’s file to be reviewed by a final class selection committee.</p>

<p>Groups of interviewers should travel around the country to evaluate applicants—much as admissions officers give presentations today. Applicants would receive final decisions soon after a close date for all interviews, and the final admission committee had a chance to reconcile the recommendations of the faculty and student committees.</p>

<p>"A student would also likely like the opportunity to “trade” admission decisions with other applicants to allow applicants accepted to each other’s dream schools to both be happy. There would necessarily be some protocol by which these acceptances would be exchanged, although the specifics don’t concern us now."</p>

<p>I like that.</p>

<p>"Again, GPA is a much better assessment of what a student has achieved in high school and is one of the best predictors of college success than test scores are."</p>

<p>False.</p>

<p>Re: financial aid - the FAFSA formula should take into account COL in an area. It's unfair that somebody who lives in a middle-class neighborhood in New York or San Francisco has the same EFC as somebody who lives in a middle-class neighborhood in Montana, where the cost of living is much less.</p>

<p>I think a lot of the process in place today has its uses.</p>

<p>The SAT, however reviled it may be, is strongly correlated with intelligence, and that is a trait that colleges would like to and should measure.</p>

<p>GPA is more complicated from its subjectivity and lack of standardization, but theoretically it should represent work ethic and willingness and capacity to learn.</p>

<p>Teacher recommendations are critical, as they show what kind of learner you truly are.</p>

<p>Essays are useful, as the demonstrate your ability to think abstractly, your conception of yourself, writing skills, and (maybe) a desirable aspect of your personality.</p>

<p>Interviews are another way of testing charisma, confidence, and general ability to contribute through interaction.</p>

<p>EC's demonstrate a number of things: work ethic, ability, interests, and talents which may be useful on a college campus. </p>

<p>The process looks the way it does because it is, largely, successful at selecting a good class. If it wasn't, then colleges would not be using it.</p>

<p>HOWEVER, that does not preclude the possibility for reform. Bdmoore, I think, cuts to the center. Schools should take more efforts to isolate the individuals which will contribute to, as Stanford puts it, "the intellectual vitality" of the campus. Of course, this process is far more labor intensive and expensive...</p>

<p>
[quote]
A student would also likely like the opportunity to “trade” admission decisions with other applicants to allow applicants accepted to each other’s dream schools to both be happy. There would necessarily be some protocol by which these acceptances would be exchanged, although the specifics don’t concern us now.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>See the problem with this is that, let's say we're talking about the Ivy League Schools, which for some, are dream schools. The Ivy League application pool is self selecting, meaning that everyone almost everyone is pretty much well qualified to attend the school, so the adcoms have the unique opportunity to pick and choose a class, and make it unique, and diverse. Therefore, if someone receives an acceptance, they most likely received it because there was something special about them, that the adcom was specifically looking for. If this acceptance however, was to be traded to another person, then most likely, this special trait or quality of the original application would be lost. So I think this idea isn't really a good one. </p>

<p>I love the SAT's. As of right now, it's probably the best way to compare different students with one another. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Again, GPA is a much better assessment of what a student has achieved in high school and is one of the best predictors of college success than test scores are.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's not true whatsoever. Like I've said before in different threads, a certain GPA in one school is not worth the same at another school. Let's give an example. Lets say I attend an extremely rigorous public highschool, where it is one of the Top Ten in the state, and I get a 3.3 GPA out of the common 4 system. Then, lets say that I attend another highschool in the same state, but it is found in the inner city, where there the graduation rate is less than 50 percent, and the academics are not that rigorous at well (I'm not trying to offend any person that attends an inner city school, I'm just making a generalization in a hypothetical situation that inner city schools with low graduation rates are not as academically rigorous than a highschool that is ranked in the top ten. Lets say I get a perfect 4.0 out of 4.0. </p>

<p>My GPA in the inner city school is higher than the one in a more rigorous top ten school? Does that mean I'm more ready for college because I did better in a not so academic environment? The advantage to the SAT is that, it's the same test that every takes, and it's pretty much the same difficulty. Sure, varying tests on varying months may vary only slightly in difficulty, but for the most part, it's basically the same. </p>

<p>And for people that argue that the SAT isn't good for people that don't have good test taking skills and/or get nervous during tests, I kind of find that hard to believe. The SAT isn't that difficult, I'm saying that the SAT tests for basic concepts from varying subjects, which for the most part, people should know and understand. And also, for the person that gets a 4.0 out of 4.0 and did terrible on the SATs that complain that they didn't do well because they get "nervous" on a test, how could that person do that well because in highschool they have to take tests as well? If they were so nervous, then they shouldn't have done as well.</p>

<p>Just returned from driving D to her job/internship--something else D can do to impress adcoms because I'm at home, which basically means I'm sacrificing myself, my career, and our family's finances. That, of course, is possibly a very bad decision, but I'm not super-mom so I made a choice. Anyway, on the other side of town, my friend is sending her D to a very expensive pre-med program in which they are actually dissecting a human cadaver. This, hopefully, will help her get into a 7-year med program. At age 15, before most kids have the maturity to be certain of their career choice, and before they are fully able to comprehend the meaning of a human life, they are dissecting people. Sorry, but this tells me that the college system is pushing people too far in their quest. I repeat: there needs to be much, much less emphasis on EC's--even academic ones.</p>

<p>
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Sorry, but this tells me that the college system is pushing people too far in their quest.

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</p>

<p>But without the college system, when would someone realize that they should even start this quest? We all know that many students pad their resumes and join many clubs to look good in front of adcoms, I think this is inherent and subconscious within every student that is trying to become accepted to a higher institution. But it is with this panic and struggle for college applications that made me think about what I was particularly skilled in, so I could join the right clubs to further my learning and enhance my abilities in this area. Many students don't know what they want to do in the future, and I think that the college system is beneficial in the way that it helps people at least think about it.</p>

<p>Limit the number of colleges you can apply to (like 10 being the max). </p>

<p>Your are only allowed to apply to a maximum of 3 Ivies. </p>

<p>Ethnicity should be completely ignored.</p>