"The problem with America’s semi-rich" -- sound familiar around these forums?

As mentioned in my earlier post, the minimum wage in the Bay area is already >$15 per hour. NYC also has a $15+ minimum wage. So if a very small portion of the Bay area population are currently living out of their cars (all estimates I’ve seen suggest far under 1%), increasing minimum wage to >$15 did not solve that problem. I also expect a good portion of employed persons who appear to live in cars do not earn the minimum wage. For example, I’ve heard of high salary tech workers who choose to park an expensive camper in the higher cost living area and make the long commute to their home in lower cost of living areas on a less than daily basis.

Homelessness is a complex and multifaceted problem that goes far beyond the national minimum wage. It’s also not a simple relationship like the government forcing all employers to increase wages to at least $x/per hour means homelessness will go down. It might instead result in some lower wage employers needing to make cutbacks on staff to be able to afford the increased wages or even going bankrupt due to being unable to make finances work, resulting in fewer government mandated wage jobs. I expect you’d have a more influential response with programs that target homeless persons more directly, focusing on specific needs of specific persons, and in some cases offering housing-based solutions.

I’m not sure who you are quoting, as my post and all other prior posts I’ve seen on this subject did not use the word “consequences.” My post instead said, “Having the same high minimum wage everywhere that is determined by government legislatures rather than market forces distorts these effects,” and I stand by that statement.

If a parent gets turned down for Parent Plus loan, the student can borrow as an independent student, i.e., an extra $4k each of the first 2 years, $5k each of the final 2 years, all unsubsidized.

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And we here with views of the Pacific Ocean, Crystal Springs Reservoir, Vasona Lake & Park, SF, Marin County, Wine Country, etc. don’t want ya either! :laughing:

Severe climate change? In Silicon Valley? No more or less than other parts of the country.

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Higher minimum wage will cause employers to raise prices, which has the same effect as a consumption tax. Its cost will be borned by average consumers, most of whom aren’t rich (The rich aren’t sensitive to the cost of comsumption because there is a limit to how much one can consume). The plight of the working poor is much better addressed via a more progressive tax system, including tax credits to the working poor.

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Rather than getting into “best place to live” wars, I’ll just mention that it’s super helpful that different folks like living in different areas.

I’m in the “no big cities” camp, along with the “prefer natural greenery outside in summer” group, but I’m glad others are different or there’s no way we could afford to live in the terrific place we have!

Climate change is a whole different animal and it definitely is affecting our decisions for future property purchases if we opt to snowbird. On one extreme there’s Water Wars and wildfires. On the other there’s rising oceans and stronger storms. With all of it there could be food issues if temps don’t stay stable enough for growing seasons. I’m not sure any place won’t be affected somehow.

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They got it wrong, though, since, as many people pointed out wages are rising and it’s not creating massive unemployment, there are more jobs than people to take them.
I’m not saying minimum wage should be $30 in the Bay Area, but there has to be a way to figure out what would be the right balance of a salary that creates buying power and affords more than basic survival, but doesnt create unemployment. Well above my skillset.

@data10: yes it’s very very complex but surely what people earn is one factor. (I wasn’t quoting someone with “”, I was minoring the term “consequences” to show I didn’t mean it like “consequences” as found on a website with many parents.)

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Some writers have written about the possibility of a “useless class” becoming a substantial part of those who would at least like to be part of the labor force. “Useless class” in terms of their labor not being valued enough to be hired (or hired at a pay level enough to live on without assistance from government, family, or charity). If that becomes true, what can “we” (as a society) do?

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My quick suggestion would be to pay more or learn to do without.

I’ve seen people say that jobs will be replaced by robots/kiosks. Undoubtedly true, but that happens without pay increases too. In many places these are either cheaper or more reliable for the job or both - no different than factory production vs hand made.

The point is that if enough employers decide to do without (employees), even in the absence of higher minimum wages, then the “useless class” (unemployable class) will grow. If that occurs, that will force US society to confront some choices that most people do not want to make.

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Time will tell. At this point there are a lot of places with Help Wanted signs all over where we live and many pay more than minimum wage.

When those get exhausted the country may have to consider Minimum Income and such things.

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There is a cost/benefit analysis with respect to automation decisions. If you increase the cost of labor, you increase the benefit of automation. So although it is happening anyway, higher minimum wages accelerate automation.

One goal could be to reduce the number of people who only bring minimum wage skills to the table. Talk of a skills gap so could better match training/schooling with skills in need.

But as we have discussed here before, the idea of “college for everyone” works on the individual level but not society as a whole. Same is true with picking a major/career that is in demand.

At some point, seems likely we go to some type of universal income. Trick is doing that while still creating/maintaining incentives to work.

Like many of the most significant challenges societies face, there is no silver bullet and solutions are complicated. Tough to discuss that tho with a society with many who think it tweets/texts.

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What would Jesus do? Or, Maimonides or Mohamed or Confusius?

If training / schooling (including for those whose jobs became obsolete) is slower than the speed at which in-demand jobs come and go, then it may be in a never-ending cycle of catch-up. This may be more of a possibility if less skilled jobs are automated away, leaving only complex jobs that require considerable training / schooling that takes a considerable amount of time.

But that would also have to get past the sociopolitical work ethic where non-workers tend to be disdained and resented as mooching off of hard-working people’s tax money.

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We could reduce the work week to 30 hours (or so). Spread the work around.

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It’s still “climate best by government test” :wink:

But not in Manteca…

I’m definitely a member of the 9.9% and I live in Northeast where I see the attitudes described in that interview in spades. I also spend a lot of time in the Bay Area. Most of my friends would be in the top 1% and certainly top 5%. A few likely in the top .1%, but I’m not sure about the threshold or their actual net worths.

When ShawWife was pregnant with ShawSon, we lived in Soho in NYC and she was talking to folks she didn’t know well, who wanted to make sure she had registered our not yet born offspring for pre-school, because otherwise his path to elite schools would be hampered. We moved back to Boston a few years later and were past the deadline to apply to the right preschool there (again, his life was going to be ruined). At age 4, all of our friends were applying to private schools where they seriously interviewed 4 year olds. One of our friends offered to sponsor him at an elite private school but said we’d need another heavy-hitter and in all earnestness suggested that I contact a professional colleague of mine, who was at the time, a Cabinet Secretary. He had been very complimentary about my work and supportive, but he had never met my son and my only relationship with him was purely professional. Based upon that experience, ShawWife and I decided to move to to a suburban/exurban town with good schools.

Even there, many of the top 1% sent their kids to private schools. Our kids were about 50% public and 50% private and at ShawD’s private school, there was such tension about whether the kids were going to get into elite schools that more than half the senior class was on anti-depressants. The parents were either going to kill the kids or themselves if their kids didn’t get in. Totally crazy.

One classmate of my sisters (from Kindergarten in public school and then later at the private HS) spent each summer before HS studying all of the material she was going to take that year in HS, so she knew the material for the year before she started the year, in order that she would do well enough to get into an elite school.

I was an alumni interviewer for a few years at my Ivy alma mater. The proportion of manufactured extracurriculars and extremely polished applicant profiles (especially from the private schools) was pretty high. The parents were clearly investing in prepping their kids for the application process.

Why do all this? Well, the major driver is the increasing inequality of American wealth and income. This is driven by technology and to a lesser extent by globalization. But, in other countries, it is lessened by a redistributive taxation. When ShawSon was studying for an MS in computational and mathematical engineering and an MBA at an elite school a few years ago, he was a completely sold on the view that AI was going to sweep through white collar jobs as well as pink/blue collar jobs and eliminate a lot of work. He could already see his classmates and Silicon Valley compatriots creating apps that eliminated jobs with ease. He felt that in any sane political environment, we would be planning for how to organize a society with many fewer people working. But, he observed that this would not happen in the US and that all of the wealth would be flowing to a) capital; and b) people who created the labor cost reducing software/technology. So, he said to me, “Dad, given the era you were in, it made sense to do what you did” (generate and sell knowledge as a consultant). “But, in my generation, you have to own the machines” (meaning be the owners of tech companies that create reducing technology). The gap between those who either own capital, invest it, or create and market new technologies and the rest of the world is probably not going to get smaller until we reach some kind of tipping point and the political pendulum swings in the other direction. I think parents who want their kids to have happy, productive lives in this brave new bifurcating world are legitimately nervous that their kids will fall on the wrong side of the divide.

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There are many things unremarkable today that were once inconceivable. Change happens. Sometimes slowly and sometimes not.

But even if you get past that, you still need a system that is sustainable. Need to get the economics right in terms of benefits paid, number of people receiving benefits and tax burden on those supporting the system.

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In case anyone was still wondering about wealth inequity in the US – The wealthiest 10% of Americans own a record 89% of all U.S. stocks https://cnb.cx/3lT7ZzW

The system is not sustainable and the 9.9% will fight the rest of us to keep their share. (The top .1% are already so wealthy that realistically the system can’t touch them.)

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Wages fell near the start of COVID, and wages have risen more recently, as the economy has become more healthy. The government have has applied plenty of incentives to boost the economy, but for the most part this recent wage growth is a natural reaction to the healthy economy. With more demand for workers, employers pay higher wages for those workers. In some particular industries with especially high demand, wages have sky rocketed in recent months.

For example, the leisure and hospitality industry has had an especially large increase in wages in recent months. After laying off a large number of employees during the early portion of COVID, now that leisure/hospitality has more demand among consumers there is a shortage of workers, and that increased demand for workers leads to rapidly increasing wages. It’s a similar idea for construction industries. For example, I am trying to get someone to replace a 20-25 foot section of my fence. I called 8 fencing companies I found on Yelp. Only 2 bothered to call me back, and one of those 2 said they were booked until March. They quoted me far higher rates than I have ever heard of for fence work. I think it’s likely that this increased demand has been reflected in a rapid increase in wages at these fence companies.

One problem with blanket national minimum wage is it ignores these natural market forces that set variable wages depending on desirability/demand of industry and skillset, experience, and cost of living among other things. The government may be requiring employers to rapidly increase wages in industries or locations that are struggling financially and cannot afford those increased wages, leading to a problem. The employers can try to cut other costs besides wages or pass the increased employee wage cost on to consumers. However, this is often not successful. Many business run on a razor thin level of profit, and small disturbances in that margin can lead to laying off employees or company failure.

A high cost of living in the Bay Area and various other locations is no doubt a problem, but increasing federal national wage in locations that are mostly outside of the Bay Area is not a good solution to that problem. There are also other locations in the US with far higher rates of poverty, unemployment, and generally struggling financially than the Bay Area. A more appropriate government response might be to provide more direct support towards particular individuals who are struggling financially, including the millions who are struggling financially while living in lower cost areas. These might include things like medical care, some degree of support for food + basic housing (value encourages moving to lower cost area), and incentives to start working and/or gain employer desirable skills to increase wages.

The specific situation in the Bay Area is more of a local problem than a government one, and the local and/or state level may take additional measures that go far beyond requiring employers to pay employees government-selected wages with no consideration of employee performance, skill set, experience, demand/desirability, and financial health of company.

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In service industries. How is it, suddenly, there’s more demand for gym trainers, hair stylists, manicurists, waiters and bartenders now than there was before the pandemic?

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