The question we all want to know...

College Majors Musical Theater Major
41

<p>I was just using Tisch as an example, I didn't feel like researching more into it. But back to selectivity. CMU accepted I believe 10 kids last year, Elon accepts 16...so as u can see, there are other programs that are just as selective. And again, I can give more numbers, but don't feel like it. </p>

<p>And what does admitting older students have to do with being selective? The fact that they admit people who have already received BFAs from other acting programs since you can get either a BFA or just a diploma from Julliard. Julliard offers more or a graduate level training program...these people are coming in talented. Julliard looks for perfection over potential as many other programs do to use their techniques to teach you to perfection...Julliard takes perfection and nurtures it.</p>

<p>and the 23% or notable students were actors...what were the other 77%?! well they are either music or dance...so i guess that throws YOUR theory out the window. I was merely using their music program since as is taken from wikipedia..."most famous for its musically trained alumni". </p>

<p>I could go on finding alumni, but if u search any of the other top school's sites, you can find just as extensive of a list of alumni.</p>

42

<p>OMG you can’t be serious! Okay. I'll assume you are but I can’t believe I have to explain this. Anyway … Juilliard admits around 20 for drama with a maximum of 25. They also admit graduate level actors on the same standard that they admit kids coming straight out of high school into that pool. More than 2000 audition and the admit rate is between 1% and 2% for everybody. The other top acting schools only admit kids coming out of high school or young transfers and let in between 3% and 10%. Some let in even more than that. Def no grad level students. If that doesn't make it obvious that Juilliard is more selective you need to take some more math before you go to college. :) You also say that “Juilliard takes perfection and nurtures it.” I disagree because there is no such thing as perfection in any art but if it were true, that would also say alot about their selectivity. You have to be perfect to get in? Hmmm That must be part of why they are the #1 drama school in the U.S. :) Funny that you mention grad level training. Try putting any of the grad schools up against Juilliard with the factors we have talked about and see who comes close. Yale Drama MAYBE? This is more random but two years ago there was a class from my pa/hs that had kids that went to Carnegie, SUNY Purchase, NCSA, Tisch, and Boston U and not a one of them even got a callback from Juilliard. </p>

<p>You would think this would be go without saying too, but Juilliard has a student population of 505. They have about 75 actors in the program at any one time. That is approximately 15% of the student population. Yet 23% of the “notable students” are actors! Also throw in the fact that the “notable students” are from the entire history of a school that was founded in 1905 and the drama division wasn’t created until 1968. The drama division is obviously more than pulling its weight. So there is MY THEORY right back at you! :p Capisce?</p>

<p>Their biggest mistake was not giving me a callback! :D YAY for the two totally amazing kids I know that got them! (including the one that posts here but isn’t saying.) I know you are reading, sweetness, and we are going to hunt you down and kick your butt if you get accepted and sell yourself short again! :) Now I feel like my dad talking sports stats ...</p>

43

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>I think my feelings about rankings are pretty well established to the readers of this board.....</p>

<p>I'd like to say that statistics are tricky things that can be used in ways that suit various points of view.</p>

<p>Selectivity is only one factor someone could look at - it is not, in any way, a defining factor of a program's success. Back and forth you go - which school is better - the one that takes 6 of 100 or the one that take 24 of 300? Well, I guess that depends on the quality of the audition pool, and how many the the school's very top choices chose to attend after being offered a slot. So if 8 of 10 top choices choose to attend after being offered a slot at a school that auditioned 100 - is that better than the school that accepts 30 of 300 but only 3 of their top 20 choices opt to attend that school? Then - if a school that spends time, money, and personnel to recruit gets 300 and another school that only relies on it's current word of mouth auditions 100 excellent folks - which school is better? Even if one school auditions 800 peole and takes 60 - but the reason so many audition is because of a reputation earned years ago - and has since lost important faculty - or who's faculty are so good that they are always out doing professional gigs (not spending time in the classroom or directing/choreographing/designing for the school) - Well - that is not good either.</p>

<p>This example could go on and on - but I think you get the point. Some have suggested other measures - successful alumni, reputation, faculty, the word on the street with casting directors, etc, etc, etc.....</p>

<p>This is all pretty silly. There are a lot of very good schools, there are many outstanding programs - and a few excellent schools - who is number one or two is very subjective - and does not matter. There is no "Rose Bowl" or "March Madness" in college MT. Neither should there be - the concept defies the very essence of the arts - they are an emotional response, subjective and wonderfully individual.</p>

<p>Lastly, if I may quote from the Desiderata:</p>

<pre><code> Avoid loud and aggressive people,
they are a vexation to the spirit.
If you compare yourself to others
you will become vain and bitter;
There will always be
greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
</code></pre>

<p>The best school is the one that has the teacher/mentor that will inspire you (or your S or D) to soar and become the artist you dream of becoming. </p>

<p>I'm not saying there are no standards - I am saying it is silly to argue this point.</p>

44

<p>MTdog, that is a GREAT quote!</p>

45

<p>mtdog71,</p>

<p>I want to thank you for your post. I whole heartedly agree with you. Although I think it is very important to approach the college program selection process with one's eyes wide open, ultimately the program must fit you.</p>

<p>After reading your quotation from the Desiderata, I thought it would be an inspiration to many who lurk and post. I copied and pasted it below along with it's copyright....so CollegeMom I hope this is kosher. If not I am sure you will correct me. If you do I will apologize right here and now. Enjoy!!</p>

<p>SUE aka 5pants</p>

<p>Max Ehrmann </p>

<p>Desiderata </p>

<p>Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story. </p>

<p>Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. </p>

<p>Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs;
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism. </p>

<p>Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass. </p>

<p>Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself. </p>

<p>You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. </p>

<p>Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. </p>

<p>With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy. </p>

<p>Max Ehrmann, Desiderata, Copyright 1952.</p>

46

<p>Here's another ...
[quote]
Seek ye not the truth. Cease only cherishing opinions.
3rd Zen Ancestor

[/quote]
Yeah, I'm feeling kinda Zen today for some reason. Seems like this time last year a lot of people started getting pretty testy on this group. Here's to a caffeine-free waiting period, maybe? Everybody lean back in your chairs, stretch out your arms as far as they'll go and let out a big AHHHHHHHHH. It's all gonna be alright. :)
[quote]
The world is like a mirror, you see? Smile, and your friends smile back.
Traditional

[/quote]

:) :) :)</p>

47

<p>for the perspective and the Desiderata quote. </p>

<p>and thanks 5pants for providing the rest!</p>

<p>I do think many of us here are suffering from MT "March Madness" (I know I am). Unfortunately we won't be cured until early April when all those envelopes have arrived!</p>

48

<p>
[quote]
I do think many of us here are suffering from MT "March Madness"

[/quote]
"March Madness?" LOVE IT!!! LOL But, wait ... It's only mid-February. Again ... AHHHHHHHH!!! :)</p>

49

<p>Hail to the peacemakers, and also to CoachC for mentioining Michael Hayden as Billy Bigelow. That entire production of Carousel was phenomenal. I can honestly say it transformed my H's skeptical view of MT!</p>

50

<p>This is a great thread and an interesting discussion, even if it has irritated some people or ruffled feathers! I am a firm believer in debate and discussion, and good debate and discussion sometimes feel uncomfortable. That's the price of public discourse. I say, "Bring it on!"</p>

<p>As a person who attended what one undergraduate of the prestigious university where I now work called "a podunk college," I truly believe that, at their core, college experiences are what you (the student) make of them. As I stated in my post about that wonderful story in The Atlantic Monthly ("Crying in the Kitchen Over Princeton"), it's less important for a kid to attend a "brand name" college level program than it is to make the most of the program she/he attends.</p>

<p>That said, I do think that attending certain well-known programs (be it in MT or drama or business or biology or engineering, etc.) does confer certain advantages on the student, deserved or not. Certainly a kid graduating from Yale and having that on her resume is going to be looked at in job interviews (at least at first!) in a way different than will one who graduated from, say, Towson University. (That was <em>my</em> podunk college!) I feel pretty sure it is the same for a kid graduating with a BFA in MT from, say, CMU or CCM. At least those first years out of college, having that association will help. (In addition, I think that it is fair to say that people will assume -- fairly or unfairly -- something about a graduate of, say, CMU. In other words, people assume that person is talented and well trained, simply because the person was, first of all, accepted into such a selective program and, two, attended such a well known program where they presumably got great training from very qualified professors.)</p>

<p>Of course, once a person has been in the working world for a few years, it is no doubt much less about where one trained and went to school and much more about what they bring to the table.</p>

<p>But certainly, there is no doubt in my mind that graduating from certain well regarded programs is perceived as -- fairly or unfairly, earned or not -- conferring certain advantages. Obviously, this is why so many students have the same colleges on their "first choice" list.</p>

51

<p>but I question how long the benefits of the name really last. Actually, I really wonder if the "name" of the particular university these kids attend matters one whit once they're out there auditioning. I suspect it only matters in the sense of helping them get cast in a production or secure an agent, IMMEDIATELY following a senior showcase. If neither of those two things happen I would think they'd be on pretty equal footing with every other MT or Drama BA/BFA grad, meaning it's the audition that counts, every time. Once you're out looking for work I'd be surprised if casting directors and agents cared much where a talented performer got their training, as long as they blew them away during an audition, and were right for the role would it matter if they went to XYZ University or ABC College?</p>

<p>Other than connections the kids might make (and of course the training they receive) through their school, I'd imagine the impact of the school name dissapates pretty quickly in an extremely competitive field like this. And you tend to receive from your college experience what you put into it, "podunk" or not!! I'm sure many of the smaller, less known programs can provide equally wonderful training for a hardworking, enthusiastic student as a well-known program does.</p>

<p>Ultimately, it's up to the kid to make the most of his/her chances!</p>

<p>P.S. Thanks to mtdog71 for the original MT "March Madness" quote in her post:</p>

<p>"There is no "Rose Bowl" or "March Madness" in college MT."</p>

<p>I liked it so much I just had to incorporate it into my later post!!</p>

52

<p>BiGismama,</p>

<p>I agree 100% with what you said. You are definitely correct. The cache conferred by a degree from any program only lasts so long. The important thing is whether a student can "bring it" to the audition room. Whether we are talking about BFA programs in MT or programs in engineering, etc., the most important element is, ultimately, more about fit and less about prestige. </p>

<p>But we live in a name-brand-conscious world. Kids want iPods, and not just generic MP3 players. Thus it is not surprising that, when it comes time to apply to college, parents and kids alike (probably parents more than kids, to be honest) push toward "name brands."</p>

<p>We all just need to remember to keep our eye on the prize, which is a good education for our kids in an environment where they are both comfortable and pushed to be their own, personal best. </p>

<p>Now, just remind me that I said this, y'all, when my D is applying for BFA programs in two years' time .... :) :)</p>

<p>LD</p>

53

<p>I agree with BiGismama and NotMamaRose....some of the best known MT programs are able to lure very talented students to attend (I still believe that many of these students are those that are very mature for their age at 18). But after the first year or so after graduation the advantage of having that school on their diploma will wear off. I can tell you that I know of actors in that very position that have not been able to sustain a lucrative acting career whereas I know of students from unknown or less thought of programs that are doing very well.</p>

54

<p>Going on what happy days said, I think there are some students who do better as the proverbial 'big fish' where as others do better as a small fish. Some kids really need to feel like one of the best in order to continue growing and probably shouldn't be at a 'Brand Name' school, while others will just bask in that glory (lol) at a small school and not seek improvement at all, and SHOULD be at a 'Brand Name' where they'll 'rise to the occasion.'
It seems sort of elementary, but I know plenty of students who are on the wrong side and can't figure out what's going wrong.</p>

<p>That's totally what is going to matter, not the name of the school. As a matter of fact, when it comes to getting agents (for example) and we all know there are TONS of illegitamate agents to try and avoid, if an agent seems very excited about your 'Brand Name' school they could very well be a bad agency desperately trying to find some decent talent.</p>

55

<p>how do you know if an agent is legit or not? im sure ill figure this out but any help?</p>

<p>chris</p>

56

<p>I hope the Sherman Brothers forgive me.</p>

<p>From what I've seen, the big degree is good for one or two gigs, after that it is your talent, work ethic, ability to get along, making (or breaking) the right connections, etc that have a far greater impact on your career. It really is a small, interconnected world of producers, agents, directors/choreographers/music directors - even stage managers - that talk to each other. You get pegged pretty quickly. That label can be "(s)he is the one that does their homework, comes in prepared and is great to have in the company" or it could be "(s)he is a pain in the ....", or it could be "they sing great, but won't work at the dancing" or it could be a phone call, "I'm auditioning ________ next week and I hope you'll be there".</p>

<p>There are books to written about what to do after you graduate - but that is not the purpose of this board. </p>

<p>The point is - your degree has a limited shelf life. The conclusion is - get everything you can out of whatever program or teacher you are exposed to. There is no such thing as luck - luck is what happens when an opportunity meets preparation. That preparation is available in many fine MT programs.</p>

57

<p>chrisnoo and mtdog,
I made a new thread so we (and whoever else) can discuss this without getting in the way of the topic here.</p>

<p>It's funny though, because you can relate the way you find an agent as to how you find schools for musical theatre.</p>

<p>I posted here:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=1834567#post1834567%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=1834567#post1834567&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

58

<p>Chris,
You asked, "how do you know if an agent is legit or not? im sure ill figure this out but any help?"</p>

<p>There are lists of legit agents in various sources. I don't own Ross Reports, but I believe that is one place. However, one way thing to know is that a "franchised agent" is legit. The term "franchised agent" means a talent agent that is licensed by the state in which they operate and has been officially approved by at least one of the three performance unions (SAG, AFTRA, AEA). </p>

<p>If your school puts on a showcase, I would imagine that legit agents will be invited to attend. As well, faculty and others at your school would know the reputation of various agencies should you receive offers. Since you are going to college at NYU, there are times when those in the industry might also come see productions put on at school. Casting people might also attend to seek out talent. You're right in New York so this can happen. </p>

<p>Remember that a legit agent does not ask YOU for money. They get paid only IF you get work. The norm is for their fee to be 10% of the salary you are paid for any jobs they submitted you for. Any agency that wants fees up front, is not legit. </p>

<p>Once you are in school, there will be courses that teach you about auditioning and the industry, don't worry.</p>