I’m under the impression that many of the frequent participants on these forums are from that niche group. So it makes sense to me that this discussion (in one form or another) happens here frequently.
4 Likes
It’s marketing 101. Colleges are masters of it.
2 Likes
This is for the graduate school, and honestly it is a lot of money for a MSN (which is the BSN that you receive from your state school). The MSN allows students to qualify for federal grad school loans, unlike an accelerated BSN. My daughter was accepted to the accelerated DNP (which includes the MSN) with a large scholarship but realized the profession was not for her. It was also very, very expensive.
One thing to note- it is not that easy to get a job coming out with a direct entry DNP and no prior work experience. You will get a job, but most places prefer work experience prior to the DNP/NP (of course there are exceptions). My daughter spent time talking to recent grads.
I think it’s a good program but it’s expensive, even with their largest award. There are less costly ways to get this degree (accelerated BSN, NP etc) including CUNY which is outstanding. Personally, I would choose CUNY for the degree over an Ivy.
Maybe they went to Samford or Sanford (National University National University to change its name after receiving $350 million pledge (insidehighered.com)? They all sound alike!!
2 Likes
Of course you can spend nothing except food and shelter.
Are you going to label every single expenditure beyond a bare bones existence wasteful-- since of course the rational thing to do is to invest it?
As I mentioned- even I- the most frugal of my friends- consider many expenditures “worth it” vs. adding more money to the investment pool. And I’m lucky to have these choices since many don’t.
But are you seriously advocating that folks NOT spend money- which they have earned lawfully, on things that are important to them beyond subsistence for the sake of investing over their lifetime?
I go to live theater once or twice a year (get bargain seats of course) but I feel grateful to be able to afford to do it. I visit museums-- I just did a trip for work which I extended for half a day to be able to visit a museum I’ve never been to before. I happily paid the admission price even though I could do an online tour and see all the same works nicely photographed. To me it was worth the price of admission and yes- I know that invested over time that admission fee would be worth zillions of dollars with a better yield than my visit. But I work hard- and when I travel for my job, I like to reward myself by seeing a historic site, works of art, archive or library that my work travel affords.
Don’t YOU have any extraneous purchases in your life? And is an NPR tote bag (“free” with a $50 donation to public television) so wasteful?
5 Likes
I never alluded to any of those things.
I’m simply stating that opportunity cost is calculated as the differential invested over the length of a career. THAT is the actual cost difference in the “is it worth it?” calculation, not a Gucci purse, or a BMW, or whatever else we decide to spend on. It’s a simple math problem.
Nor am I saying don’t do it if the differential is dramatically different. That’s for each family to decide.
1 Like
I find it interesting to see the dynamics at play with respect to some of the universities being discussed. Harvard & MIT are pretty universally agreed upon as “elite” schools. People argue about how there are many benefits of attending such institutions, even beyond any possible links to high-wage fields that strongly prefer elite grads. That choosing to spend full freight for those schools is perfectly rational, even if not all families would choose to make the same decision. But paying full freight for Lehigh or U. of Miami, currently ranked by USNWR as #51 & 55 among national universities, elicits shudders. [To be fair, going into significant debt for any school when a free ride is available elicits shudders in me. But it wouldn’t matter what the institution was that was getting someone to take out the big loans…it would be the fact that the big loans are being taken out when it’s not necessary.]
For students who have gone to college in the last few years, they’re going to be thinking of schools with low admissions rates (low for whatever the reason) as worthy/elite/status schools. So even though most people who are old enough to be parents or grandparents don’t think nearly so highly of some institutions as younger people do, over time, other brands “move up” the ranks, as they become as scarce of a resource as some of the traditional “elites” were for people of older generations. So when current students are looking at colleges for their kids, they’ll be thinking that schools with sub-20% acceptance rates now are elite, even if not everyone feels that way now.
If a family has the financial resources to pay for a school (any school) without causing serious financial damage (i.e. raiding all their retirement accounts, going into debt beyond federal loans, mortgaging their house to the hilt), then I’m fine with it. Whether those reasons have to do with status, or a niche interest, or family tradition, or a better fit for a student, or whatever the reason happens to be doesn’t really matter. Of course, we all have different financial situations, so some may say that they’ll pay $30k when their kid could have done $10k, or pay $50k when they could have only paid $20k, or $90k when they could have done $30k. Nearly every parent on this board has chosen to pay a certain amount “extra” (beyond what they could have paid), because it was the right choice for their kid/family. I don’t think anyone should be shamed for whatever that “extra” amount was, whether $5 or $500,000.
6 Likes
Agreed @AustenNut. The only time I worry about someone choosing any school (elite or not) is when they have to take out debt beyond the Stafford loans to do so.
8 Likes
And many commentators are equally critical of paying OOS tuition for more highly ranked publics like Berkeley and UCLA (even though full pay there is cheaper than top privates) because you seemingly should be entitled to a luxury experience if you are paying that much money.
Those publics give you a good alumni network and a highly respected qualification, so for many people it’s not really about rankings (eg Berkeley and UCLA are ranked higher than CMU and Georgetown).
1 Like
Going to college isn’t just about the economic payback.
We know there are some parents who donate millions for higher chances of admissions at some elite universities.
Is that economically rational?
Probably not.
But there are wider benefits to going to certain colleges that are not economic. It boosts your self-esteem, gives you a brand to fall back on, and the university experience itself is enjoyable.
6 Likes
I dont think anyone objects to people spending their own money as they please on any school.
Where it gets objectionable for me is people asking for government loans to attend a Lehigh, when Penn State is more affordable, or a U Miami, when UFlorida is available. Not a smart financial decision, and one I am not willing to subsidize as a taxpayer. Get a private loan and deal with it if it is that vital to you.
1 Like
Lots of them do, top Nursing schools include Vanderbilt, Duke, NYU and Johns Hopkins. Nursing is not offered at Liberal Arts colleges though.
1 Like
Does that include the approximately 42% of Penn State students who are from OOS?
2 Likes
Based on the net price calculators on both Lehigh and Penn State’s websites and the tuition tracker site https://www.tuitiontracker.org/, it seems like for families with household incomes under 100K have similar net prices so yes, a student would need to borrow but not any more than they’d likely borrow for Penn State. Actually at moderate (and low) incomes, Lehigh’s net price calculator estimate is under Penn State’s. I plugged my daughter’s data in as a Pennsylvania resident, and she would have to borrow both places, but it is Penn State that suggested that I take out a 26k Parent Plus Loan while Lehigh’s estimated package included student loans but no parental loans.
ETA: What is the objection to students taking out loans for Lehigh over an instate public? Is it that the idea of subsidized loans for a private college is unacceptable even if that private college is cheaper? Sort of like poor people shouldn’t eat steak even if they buy it with a coupon --if the taxpayers are subsidizing the food, their diets should consist of gruel, peanut butter, and government cheese on principle? For the record, this is hyperbolic rhetoric. I know next to nothing about Lehigh (other than it was recommended by the college advisor at one of my kids’ schools). I also know nothing about Penn state so to be clear, I am not calling Penn State a form of government cheese. I’m just trying to understand the comment about it being unacceptable to take loans for Lehigh.
4 Likes
Well, if you want to do the calculation properly, you would actually discount the future cash flows at an appropriate rate. But most people won’t bother doing any part of this, because it’s a gut feel when the money is being spent as to whether the higher expense will be worthwhile or not.
And while “worthwhile” for some people means higher pay sufficient to offset the higher cost, for others it means a fulfilling time with their intellectual peers, or having an enjoyable set of activities outside of classes. And it might be only after graduation, or perhaps several years after that, that you learn if you made the right decision.
6 Likes
I think she’s assuming (perhaps, incorrectly) that in-state residents don’t have to take out loans to attend their flagships. That sounds almost too good to be true. However, I was thinking that even if that were true, Penn State would then have to find a way to plug the gigantic budget hole left in the wake of all the OOS kids who -by her edict - would no longer be eligible for loans because their own in-state public would be cheaper.
2 Likes
Penn State (University Park) is probably one of the less affordable state flagships for in-state students, due to poor in-state financial aid. Being in a remote area means that few students can save money by commuting.
According to Interactive Map - The Institute for College Access & Success , 53% of Penn State (University Park) graduates have debt averaging $42,647.
2 Likes
I hadn’t thought about that, but I think you are right or additional revenue would need to be replaced in some other way with the loss of out of state students.
But I did try various EFC’s in the Penn State calculator and I checked the residency box. All the estimates included student and parental loans.
1 Like
Yep
The answer really depends on the individual situation: to our family and many others, yes, paying more for ivy-plus schools over UVA and William &Mary is worth it. But we do not have loans. Other threads indicate recent articles on how the ivy-plus schools do provide increased opportunities. Our own experience has led us to understand the difference in fit compared to the flagships. Fit is important . Would I do it if we had to take out loans for the difference? No. Did one of mine turn down full cost of attendance at a T25ish to go to a school with a much better program and overall fit for her? Yes. No regrets. And we realize that choice means we are extremely fortunate. We consider ourselves to be in that fortunate position due to our top10 education. In other words, these decisions are based on individual experiences and perceptions that not everyone agrees with, and that is ok.
5 Likes