<p>A friend (who is quoted in the article) sent me this today so I thought I'd share. </p>
<p>alwaysamom: I was just going to post this article. Thank you! Could you also post it over on the Theatre/Drama thread? It's a sobering reality check.</p>
<p>I remember about 5 years ago there was a similar discussion about the number of Ph.D's being turned out in my particular field. [It seemed very misleading to students to accept so many when so few job openings were available.] </p>
<p>Schools (that I know) did seem to accept smaller classes of incoming graduate students after that issue became a national discussion. What are theater faculty responses to this glut of theater students wanting BFA's in performance? I'm just curious.</p>
<p>doctorjohn, I posted it in the Arts forum under a separate post rather than in the Theatre thread ( by mistake, actually. That'll teach me to try to multi-task!) Perhaps the moderator can add it to that thread if you think it would be more useful there.</p>
<p>You're right. It is a sobering reality check for many kids (and parents) who don't realize how very difficult it is to be successful in this business.</p>
<p>Of course, it didn't tell us anything we really didn't know. And it didn't tell us anything that will deter most of our kids. But yes, to read it there hits you over the head.</p>
<p>Dean Schmidt does talk about how graduates are prepared and do go on to do a variety of other jobs in the arts and theater world. Also the additional liberal arts education there creates educated thinkers who can be employable. I know when others bring up the notion of "your kid went into theater!" with the thinking of there is no work or long odds of a job/career in this field, it is of no concern to me at all. I know I am preaching to the choir here but for one thing, you can't keep someone who has this passion that is deep seated from pursuing a life on stage. Secondly, I am not worried if my own child does not end up getting work as a performer because I know there are many other things she can do and even loves to do and even has a penchant for that are related and still in theater....be it writing shows, directing, musical directing, choregraphing, teaching theater to children or being an accompaniest for auditions or actual shows. Even in other college majors, students do not always go on to have a job in their exact college focus area. Look at many adults today and they are not necessarily working in what they majored in though may be in a related area. But they have their college education and an education will always take you places. I think at Tisch, and the deans did discuss this at Parent Weekend, they truly aim to educate students as knowledgeable thinkers as well as train you artistically in the conservatory. I still believe such a degree will serve someone well in the future. A life on stage is uncertain. Even if someone IS cast and gets work, they will always be job hunting when one show ends. </p>
<p>Also the article points out how at programs, such as Tisch, they have industry folks in all the time working with students on the audition process and other aspects of the "biz". I know that the seniors at CAP21 have an entire semester of industry folks coming in to work with them preparing for their careers/auditions, etc, many casting agencies, directors, and so forth, culminating in a showcase for these folks. So college BFA progams do deal with "what's next" with these students and do more than simply train them to be good actors/singers/dancers. Still, most who go into this are aware of the realities. But I don't see college as simply a ticket to a job. It is about becoming an educated person, with a specialty and no matter what, you'll always have that education and it is bound to provide you with opportunities in life that MAY not have been possible without that education. </p>
<p>Also, as Jamimom (who no longer posts here unfortunately) used to say...something like this....I can't recall the exact quote...but she said that college is like a "halfway house" for young adults. It really IS that too! I don't think I'll EVER weigh the worth of my kid's education on which job she gets when she gets out.</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Susan, you said:
"I know that the seniors at CAP21 have an entire semester of industry folks coming in to work with them preparing for their careers/auditions, etc, many casting agencies, directors, and so forth, culminating in a showcase..."</p>
<p>Do the other studios have this as well, or only CAP students?</p>
<p>Susan, as you know because we've discussed this many times :), I agree with you about kids being educated actors and able to pursue anything they choose to after getting a BFA. I absolutely feel that it is an excellent academic education as well as artistic education that my D is getting. She, like your D, is interested in a variety of things arts-related and otherwise, and I have every confidence that she will end up pursuing something which interests her, whether it's onstage or writing or directing or starting her own theatre company or travelling the world for National Geographic! ;) </p>
<p>I posted this because a friend quoted in it sent it to me. It's an issue she and I have discussed at length on many occasions, and we 'see' this issue in the same light. I know we are sometimes preaching to the choir here on CC but I also think that there are occasionally students and parents here who, through no fault of their own, are not as likely to know the realities of this business. I've seen lots of posts over the years and had emails and PMs from individuals on the forums who think that the natural progression of things is to get accepted to one of the schools discussed here, graduate, get an agent, audition, and voila! they're cast in a Broadway show. Lots of us here know the odds and agree that it's great to have a passion for this life but it's also wise to be realistic.</p>
<p>I, too, miss jamimom. She was a great asset to the forum and I wish she'd return, if only for a visit! I also hope that her S is having a great freshman year.</p>
<p>chris, yes, all of the Tisch studios have such classes.</p>
<p>Chris, AlwaysAmom knows the other studios better than I at Tisch and says they have such classes. I was only talking of a special brand new program for fourth years at CAP in my earlier post. CAP had such classes in the past too. But this new option for fourth year CAP students involves a semester of industry professionals coming in, sometimes for a week's immersion to work with students. It may be someone from a casting agency (ie, Bernie Telsey), or a Broadway person (ie., Frank Wildhorn). A friend of my D who is a fourth year explained about this new "pilot" program. A person who teaches at CAP and also works for Jim Carnahan (big casting agency in NYC) got this new thing started at CAP. It involves one on one coaching with headshots, resume, etc. People from casting agencies come in and work with them as if they are auditioning for a show they are casting. They get feedback. They learn each agency's likes/dislikes. Casting directors are involved in sponsoring this. All those fourth years in this program are guaranteed to be in the culminating showcase for agents. This is separate from the industry showcase for ALL of Tisch which you must be selected to be in. </p>
<p>AlwaysAMom, I know here it IS preaching to the choir, but you are so right that there are many who are not aware of the realities of this field. The realities should not dissuade someone from entering it, but surely the need is there to be fully cognizant of these realities and the types of options and possibilities down the line for graduates. Like you say, it is not like "I got into a BFA program so now I'm all set." Far from it. Still the degree will be a grounding for options in the future. You can't go wrong with the degree, as long as you know what is involved down the line. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Here is something funny...I read that article last night actually online and decided to send it to my D at Tisch. She never writes ME emails but I just got one thanking me for sending it and that she just incorporated it into an essay she is writing! I have no idea the topic of the essay. I only sent her the article because it is interesting and because her deans and directors are quoted in it. :D</p>
<p>It's certainly very, very worthwhile to have these kinds of discussions here, both for parents and for students! Though I find it hard to fathom that there <em>are</em> folks out there who think "Once I get the degree, I am set and will certainly be cast in a Broadway show and become an instant star!" I know that's true in theater/acting/MT, the same way it is in many other professions. For instance, I used to be a newspaper reporter and I would sometimes speak to classes of would-be journalists at a local university about the job, my own undergraduate degree (in English ... talk about majors that people think are useless in preparing one for the real world :)) and the business in general. I was surprised (and appalled) to learn that a good number of the college students to which I was speaking thought that if they just worked hard and got good grades in their communication program in college, they would come out and get jobs at large newspapers or TV stations. I worry I was sometimes unduly harsh in dissuading them of this fantasy. I remember asking the class "How many of you write for your university newspaper?" and a couple hands would go up, tops. These kids actually thought that completing a BA program itself would have big news organizations knocking on their doors. Of course, they were dreaming. I told them if I were an editor looking at their resume, I would expect to see that they not only worked on their college paper, but also that they had internships and good clips from a variety of publications, ideally. They just sat there, looking at me, with open mouths.
At least (most of) our kids are not so deluded. They know the odds are tough. It's good to be realistic and idealistic at the same time, as long as you keep them in balance.
Lisa</p>
<p>Chrism - many well run MT programs have these elements (courses on prepping for a life in the theatre, visitations by alumni and other theatre pros to speak on the business and the realities of the business, showcases and/or campus visits by agents/casting directors). I had a conversation with Dave Clemmons at a symposium two years ago where he confirmed (after having stated as much in his presentation) that he and many others are quite tired of the showcase route - he prefers campus visits where he can identify and watch the developement of various students. Apparently, the trouble with showcases is that they are all remarkable similar and come in rapid-fire succession, clustered in the early spring. In any case, most good schools deal with attempting to prep their students for the cold, hard sidewalks of New York, or L.A., or Las Vegas, or where ever.</p>
<p>The difficult part of wanting to have a career as a performer is the fact that landing that first role is just the start. That role may only last a few weeks or months and then the actor needs to start the process over again. I know of several very talented performers that were thrilled to be cast in a Broadway show or tour soon after graduation only to find themselves out of work after the show ends and still waiting tables 2 or 3 years later. There has been an explosion of degree programs in the last few years...just look at the master list compiled by this website. And of course almost every college has a music program turning out vocal performance majors also. The good news is that the students that attend college and do get a college degree can translate that into other careers. I know of many happy perfomers that are accountants, lawyers and teachers by day and find community theatre opportunities to satisfy their need to perform.</p>
<p>I work for an organization that works with college students and careers- as I am sure most of us 'rents here can attest to, what your degree is in does not define what you do. I have a very nice degree in engineering that I have never used in the purist sense of the degree. I branched out and found my passion in education- of adults (not children!)</p>
<p>I am supportive of my D pursing her dream- if nothing else I see her developing what she loves into something that can be a career and not just a job. She might teach in a variety of ways or do something else that nutures her love of music and theatre. She wants to do something she loves. I know many adults who also say that! </p>
<p>My D is also a realist in a sense however - she has listened to everyone who says: 1. How tough it will be to get into one of the top programs and 2. How impossible it will be to succeed as a performer one day. She has still determined that this is still what she can ONLY see herself doing... and our youth is when we must pursue our dreams or they will only become our fondest wishes when we are old. </p>
<p>Just my musings on our children and their dreams....</p>
<p>Nancy</p>
<p>Just my two cents on the subject:</p>
<p>I have known many teenagers who believe that they're going to star in every show they audition for and go onto Broadway and win Tony Awards and be big, rich, and famous. I take a certain bit of pride in myself that I know I have a one in a billion chance to be on Broadway, but if I can perform professionally at all, I will perfectly content. For a lot of other kids I know, regional theatre or an ensemble member in a national tour would simply not be good enough.</p>
<p>I also happen to know someone who in incredibly talented and hopes to pursue a BFA in MT in a few years, but who has a huge passion to be a ballet teacher if she cannot make it as a professional dancer or actress.</p>
<p>There are also many people who end up concentrating on just the arts and completely neglect other areas they may be exceptional at and may give them just as good or better career choices down the road. I have a friend who is looking at colleges and universities right now who does not know whether she should follow the competitive theatrical road or follow a path of biochemistry and mathematics because she is wonderful and capable of succeeding in both areas. At the moment, she's leaning towards biochemistry, because she says she's not sure she's ready for the competitiveness of the theatre world.</p>
<p>Just some of my personal anecdotes on the subject...I'm sorry if this doesn't make much sense- I'm exhausted right now but find the subject interesting.</p>
<p>Any time someone starts talking to me about all this I verbally plagiarize parts of what Thesbohemian and Doctorjohn said on the Drama thread last year. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I can only speak for myself and maybe Im arrogant, but Im not worried about making a living with a BFA in Acting at all. My mom likes to call it a BFA in Table Waiting, but thats okay. I actually LIKE waiting tables. Beats the doo doo out of working in an office. I can keyboard at around 100 wpm and am fairly computer literate, so I can always pay the bills that way if need be. Id make a great receptionist, too. If you knew me, youd also know I can sell ANYTHING. You dont need a business degree to sell real estate or insurance and people who are good at it can make lots of money. Commissioned sales leave your time flexible to audition, too. Besides, with a BFA, things dont stop there education-wise. I could move on to get a MFA. As Doctorjohn implied above, I may find Ill need one, anyway. I could use that to teach at the college level and maybe even go for a PhD and chair a department. Then again, I could just get a teaching certificate and teach high school drama. Im also fluent in German, semi-fluent in Spanish, and my current plan is to learn Russian in college, so I could always get a Masters in International Business after maybe taking a few basic business classes at a cheap community college. Law school is a possibility, too, though Id probably hate my life if I did that. Ya never know
I might just end up marrying a rich dude! LOL </p>
<p>Really, whats a Bachelors degree worth these days in most things career-wise? Youre no more likely to be the next Donald Trump with a business degree than you are to be the next Julianne Moore with a BFA. Most people dont end up doing what they studied in college, anyway. Ya know I have a cousin who graduated Cum Laude from a fairly well-respected Business department at a state university. Know what he does? Assistant Manager at Blockbuster. I was making more money than him waiting tables last summer. Of course, I wont do ANY of those other things until Im at least thirty and have given the love of my life a real go. Fact is, I must act. Ill be fine.</p>
<p>Maybe Im not spoiled and materialistic enough to understand all the talk about the slight chance of making a decent living at this. Im from a single parent, two-child household living off a nurses salary. Ive never had a lot and I feel like I can live with less as long as Im doing something I love. I hope this doesnt come off as a rant, but I somehow felt the need to chime in.
[/quote]
[quote]
Thesbo: You're not arrogant, and that wasn't a rant, just the nicest piece of writing I've seen in a long time from a young person who wants to be an actor for all the right reasons. Honestly, kid, any school that doesn't want you is blind ...</p>
<p>You're also right about job opportunities. Time was, as the parents on this thread remember, when Accounting majors and MBAs could write their own tickets. It's just not true any longer. They have to compete for jobs just like actors have always had to. (There's a certain sadistic satisfaction in that.) And you're absolutely right about the kinds of skills you've already gained by studying theatre. A business major may know how to read a spreadsheet, but does he know how to read the person sitting across the table? Has he been trained in empathy? Does he know what he wants? Does he know if what he wants is a good thing for everyone, or just for himself? Does he know himself? You cannot study acting and not learn these things, even if you don't become a great actor. And if you learn these things, there arent a lot of things you cant do, with the possible exception of neurosurgery and nuclear physics. If theres value in reading the great works of literature, isnt there at least as much value in speaking them aloud, and bringing the characters to life? If theres value in talking about politics in POLI 101, isnt there at least as much value in enacting those situations in THR 151? Actors learn about literature and politics and psychology from the inside, from what it feels like to be living those scenes, and they learn it from some of the smartest people who ever lived, Euripides and Shakespeare and Chekhov and Brecht. If someone can make an argument for majoring in some other subject as a <better> way of learning how to live life, let them give it a try.</better></p>
<p>Now thats a rant.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That was part of what got me interested in reading here! haha</p>
<p>Ahhhh, I miss Thesbo.</p>