The Role of Academic Rigor

<p>So let's cut to the chase with my question: Is a straight B student in Honors and AP Classes (less than / equal to / greater than) a straight A student in regular, normal classes from an admissions standpoint?</p>

<p>I'm asking this because, as you may have guessed, I'm in that dilemma. For our school, classes have a huge discrepancy of intelligence. Normal classes are extremely easy while anything above is extremely hard with a varied dosage of homework. However, we are recognized in our state for being smart or something like that. </p>

<p>It seemed ideal for me to challenge myself and to learn something new rather than get the "easy A".</p>

<p>By doing so, my weighted GPA (not so great because I did horrible freshman year) is steadily increasing (right now I'm at a 3.6) but my unweighted GPA is, in my opinion, a nightmarish 3.0. Our school uses the scale of 4.0/3.0/2.0 etc. for regular classes, 4.5/3.5/3.5 etc. for honors, and 5.0/4.0/3.0 etc. for AP.</p>

<p>For most places a 4.0 with ‘easy’ courses that are still college prep level (e.g. not home ec) would be better than a 3.0 with Honors or AP courses. </p>

<p>I had a similar decision to make. Take Honors Calculus 2 and risk a 3.0 B or take regular Calculus 2 and ensure a 4.0 A; I chose the latter option. </p>

<p>From a college point of view, it is best to get A grades in the harder courses.</p>

<p>High schools where there is a huge gap in rigor and difficulty between the regular and honors courses are doing it poorly. If the regular courses are too easy, they will not prepare the students for college level work.</p>

<p>Yeah, the usual answer from colleges is “You should be getting an A in the advanced class.”</p>

<p>However, a “B” isn’t that bad, considering that you’re further challenging yourself. Even if it’s not a perfect score, the advanced class is a much more enriching experience, one that will better prepare you for college. Plus, who says you couldn’t get an A? :)</p>

<p>@ucbalumnus Yup, this is pretty common today, sadly.</p>

<p>I don’t really like either scenario, but I’ll say that if I had to make a choice, I’d say that I’d take the 4.0. This might seem counter-intuitive, with all the emphasis on rigor, but a 4.0 in regular classes merely says that you didn’t challenge yourself, who knows how you’d do if you stepped it up a notch. There’s no evidence you’d do worse, just an appearance you’re a bit lazy. </p>

<p>Straight B’s in honors and APs is a pretty solid sign you might not be ready for prime time, particularly if your school does not have a reputation as a tough grading school. If there are plenty of A’s in those classes, it’s evidence you’ll be struggling all through college.</p>

<p>There’s an old saying “Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.” Sorry to say, but by getting all B’s, you’ve removed all doubt, at least in the eyes of admissions. Sure, you’re probably capable of doing better work, but by taking all honors and APs, you may have overextended yourself. Now you need to find a way to prove you are capable of solid (A) work in top level classes, and that’s not going to be easy. </p>

<p>Figure out a balanced schedule that will let you get a number of A’s in all level of classes. Your best hope is an upward trend.</p>

<p>@MrMom62 Our school is actually really really good in our state, which says wonders about our state. If I could go back, I’d take the easier route. In regular, even though it’s super easy, there are better teachers that want you to pass or get an A and will take the time to help you. For Honors and AP in our school, sometimes it captivates interest, but it’s mostly “how much homework do you want each night”. Don’t get me wrong, I’m doing fine in them, it’s just that the teachers are trying their best to fail you.</p>

<p>So it looks like I have some explaining to do in my college app in the near future. It’s not that I can’t take the workload or classes are too hard, it’s just that I’m living with helicopter parents, a social stigma due to race, and that I’m not applying myself to my best ability due to my outside and inside environment.</p>

<p>Thanks for the input though, and yeah, there’s been a good upward trend, I’ll get a great rec letter, and I think I’ve found a pretty good balance.</p>

<p>@ucbalumnus Yeah, I agree. Although the classroom is more calm and less “cut-throat” than honors environments, there is an obvious discrepancy in intelligence. There are people who range from extremely intelligent to somewhat intelligent (I hate to brag, but me), and the 1.8 going to community college people.</p>

<p>“Is a straight B student in Honors and AP Classes (less than / equal to / greater than) a straight A student in regular, normal classes from an admissions standpoint?” </p>

<p>The correct answer, according to adcoms, is that a straight A student in Honors and AP classes is favorable. There shouldn’t be too much of a trade off.</p>

<p>

I’ve heard this answer for years and it drives me nuts because it is unhelpful and does not answer the question; it is akin to a financial advisor giving his client advice to “buy low and sell high.” The original question is really a false one because the only options are not good grades in easier classes vs. low grades hard classes. The best approach is for a student to take challenging courses in his or her areas of strength and interest, and less challenging courses in his or her weaker areas. It is a more humane approach to a school year, so you’re not being (for example) hosed by AP calculus when you’re not good at math, but you dig deep into material that you’re good at or find interesting. </p>

<p>^^I completely agree @snarlatron. I apologize for providing a trite answer earlier. I like to think that if a student devotes enough time to studying, then they should be able to do well in all of their advanced classes; however, I understand that that’s not always the case, and that students should take classes corresponding to their interests. For example, I’ve taken every AP social studies class in existence (made by the CB), but I’ve also taken AP Calc/Stat and APES (and Lit and Lang). I’m interested in the social sciences, but I’ve been able to succeed in other fields. I wasn’t particularly good at math/science, but I like learning new things. By taking advanced classes outside of my field, I can tackle problems from multiple perspectives (I started quantitative research on the Nordic Model through statistical analysis after inspiration from AP Stat, as opposed to a sort of one-dimensional approach for theoretical research). </p>

<p>TL;DR: Sorry for giving such a cliche response earlier, but I think people should take classes they feel comfortable with in order to pursue knowledge and broaden their interests. It helps build an interdisciplinary focus. If they try hard enough, they should be able to do well, and that’s what adcoms like to see. </p>

<p>“it’s just that I’m living with helicopter parents, a social stigma due to race, and that I’m not applying myself to my best ability due to my outside and inside environment.”</p>

<p>I don’t think those are valid excuses. They don’t help you look any better. </p>

<p>Would be good to get an honest-to-goodness admission’s or application reader to tell the truth about this.
As one who prefers real quality over glitz, I advised my kids to take the best most challenging courses and <em>learn</em> a lot. Was I right? I don’t know if as a strategy this is best. DH and I are not so much strategizers as parents seeking to give our children values. But the OP was asking a question that was all about how to strategize, and a truthful answer from someone who really knows would interest many who are making plans with these considerations as prime objectives.</p>

<p>The truth is either scenario is going to affect your acceptances. If you take less rigorous classes and get A’s you are most likely not going to be admitted to top tier schools and probably won’t get much merit money from second tier schools. Same if you get B’s in honors classes. BUT…if you ace your standardized tests THEN I think the all B’s in honors/AP’s is a better option. A 2200 SAT or 32 ACT will tell the adcoms that you can do the work in college and probably slacked in high school. Where high test scores and all college prep classes tells the AdCom that you skated through high school because you had the ability to challenge yourself and chose not to.</p>

<p>I agree with the above poster. If you can score high on a standardized test (which is STANDARDIZED so everyone takes the same difficulty of test) then you can prove to the adcoms that your high school is tough compared to the rest of the US and world. However, if you score low, basically you’re telling the adcoms that you’re not excelling in a fairly easy academic climate. A low standardized test score will discredit a 4.0 UW GPA, and a high standardized test score will show that your 3.5 GPA really isn’t all that bad.</p>

<p>I have a similar question to the one OP asked but i made a new thread because i think I’m in a slightly different scenario. It concerns AP classes as well as dual enrollment classes and the quantity of classes taken. I would appreciate it if any of you could provide insight (<a href=“How much will class rigor help me? (And how will my transcript be looked at?) - Applying to College - College Confidential Forums”>How much will class rigor help me? (And how will my transcript be looked at?) - Applying to College - College Confidential Forums)</p>

<p>No. It depends on the college or the tier of colleges you are aiming at. The more selective a college is, the more ubc’s words apply: “get A grades in the harder courses.” Because that’s what your competition is doing, And then some. And, the tougher colleges want to know you are up to their challenges. </p>

<p>For a most competitive college, a high std score with a 3.5 gpa (even at a very tough hs,) is not going to prove your worth to them. It’s going to show you got some grades less than A. </p>

<p>It definitely depends on the college. Check the Common Data Set, section C7, to see what emphasis is placed on rigor vs. grades. For instance, last I checked rigor was NOT considered by U Kansas while GPA is very important. Conversely, at U Texas rigor is very important while GPA is not considered (that’s because they use class rank as their #1 element).</p>

<p>Let us be concrete here/ OP, what colleges were you thinking of applying to? (names)
Because if it’s your local West C State University, take the regular college prep courses. If you are aiming at Top 50 universities/LACs, then take the APs. If you are aiming at Top 25, then you’ll be expected to have AP’s with A’s.</p>

<p>I agree that it depends on the college. And the most selective really do want both.</p>

<p>Eg. When we did the Stanford tour, the Adcom addressed this exact issue and gave the “trite” reply that it’s better to take the most rigorous course load and get A’s in them. Now is this really “trite”? For Stanford, I don’t think so. I think that they mean it. Considering that their acceptance rate is only about 6%, they can expect to find plenty of applicants who have both a near perfect gpa AND a rigorous course load – in addition to outstanding, nationally-ranked EC’s (or significant hardships).Same for the Ivies and the other elites. Less selective universities will be more flexible.</p>

<p>“Would be good to get an honest-to-goodness admission’s or application reader to tell the truth about this.”</p>

<p>Personally, I think it depends on the college, but I can relate one honest-to-goodness Adcom’s opinion for you. We attended Mount Holyoke College’s “Focus on Admission” day a couple of years ago. We parents had a separate seminar about admissions. They gave us three applications to read. One was the girl with 4.0 and all challenging classes. One was the girl with 4.0 and no AP/IB/honors. One was the girl with As and Bs and a challenging courseload, plus excellent essays. We then discussed what the college’s admissions decisions were likely to be. The girl with the As and Bs in challenging courses beat out the straight-A student who hadn’t challenged herself. Granted, though, Mount Holyoke is a small liberal arts college and my sense is those tend to be more holistic in their application-reading.</p>