The Rowing Class of 2017 Recruiting Thread

Athletic Recruits
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So you have a son or daughter (or both) who is addicted to rowing. You know the type - oblivious to blisters, gets antsy after a few days away from the clubhouse (“I can’t take off all Thanksgiving weekend!”), has managed to accumulate a drawer full of unisuits. You’ve caught them watching videos of Worlds or Youth Nats on YouTube instead of doing homework.

These kids row because it’s their passion, not because anyone told them it would get them into a good college. But the topic is unavoidable. They have teammates who just “committed” to various colleges after getting likely letters, or signing letters of intent.

And now the cycle is starting for them, even though they are juniors, and most have not even taken SAT/ACTs. Emails, calls, invitations to come by the boathouse, or come visit their older friends who are now freshmen at this or that college.

There are a large number of threads for rowers on CC, with many excellent comments from @classicalmama @varska and others. But there is a lot of chatter about how different sports recruit differently, and are also comments about how recruiting standards are changing. There’s also one topic that seems under-discussed here on CC, at least compared to rowing discussions on sites like Reddit. So perhaps it would be helpful to start a new thread for the class of 2017, and invite discussion on one or more of the following topics:

  1. What athletic standards are coaches are communicating to rowers, and how wide a net are they casting at this point? For heavyweight boys, one Ivy coach told DS, "I'm looking for guys who can pull a 6:09 2k." He must have meant they could do that after a few years of his coaching, not while they were still in high school, yes? Another HYP coach told a recruit (with a string of regatta victories and a medal at Youth Nats) they would give him a LL if he could pull a 6:15 (this was in the fall of senior year). He was a few seconds short of that.

For lightweight boys, one Ivy coach sent a form email (apparently to kids who had filled out their questionnaire) asking the recruits to commit to a 6:35 2k. Reasonable? Aspirational? Looking at the incoming rowers’ Concept2 and BeRecruited stats, many (most?) recruits were slower - some much slower.

Girls: Sorry, I don’t know what the girls’ coaches are saying; please feel free to add your information and queries.

  1. Speaking of BeRecruited and Concept2, are people using them, or other sites, or just writing directly? Son had one coach respond very quickly to a questionnaire, while another wrote a form letter, asking him to fill out the questionnaire - unaware that he had already filled it out over the summer. Another coach wrote, "I was looking at your profile on BeRecruited, and wanted to ask if you were interested in rowing at __________." That was interesting. (Also, has anyone else had problems with the RecruitSpot website? It does not seem to retain all the date you've entered previously.)
  2. How are kids who are on the border of the heavyweight/lightweight line deciding which way to go - and are they getting pressured from coaches? A very fraught question.
  3. Advisors/consultants/"Elite Coaching". One kid, two years ahead of DS, worked with Xeno Muller for a few months, achieved his 2k goal at CRASH-Bs last winter and is now at the Ivy of his dreams. What are others' experiences with Xeno's different courses that he offers? People who have used Sparks, Rower's Edge and Recruiter Edge should also chime in.
  4. Staying in touch with coaches, and junior days. Now that the fall rowing season is over, how frequently should kids send updates to the coaches who have asked to be updated? How important is it to attend a school's Junior Day?
  5. Pressure to commit early. How early does it start? I've read some comments about extremely early commitments in other sports. For rowing, it seems to happen after OVs in September and October of senior year. Is that right?

Looking forward to the conversation!

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Delete

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@twoinanddone
Why delete?
Does this mean there are no posts from contributors?

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I think it meant that @twoinanddone posted something and then deleted it during the time when you are allowed to edit your post. You can’t just entirely delete a posting, but you can replace it with something like “deleted” or “delete”. Too bad, as @twoinanddone has put up some very informative posts in prior threads.

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hi I definitely can’t help on all but can pipe in on some from our experience.
starting from 1. and on lightweights - We were told to get at 6:38 by junior year. If you can get to the Boston Crash Bs with a time like that or better you will be noticed. All the coaches know what happens there. A good showing will give you a huge leg up. But yes the coaches want 6:34, where we were at by the end of the summer entering senior year.

All the action started happening that late spring and summer between junior and senior year.

On 2. pressure to commit - I remember our family being on summer vacation and DS fielding calls/emails with not insubstantial pressure being asked of him (and even us actually to see what we could learn in fin aid from the school - we did everything asked of us to convey our interest too) during that summer. He dodged it gracefully and managed to convey interest and to indicate that the conversation would begin in earnest AFTER the OV. It was during that summer also that he was asked to go on certain UVs to planned events at boathouses which he did with dad. He later went on OVs to some of those. Some places however just simply asked him and arranged an OV without more. If we had an OV already we didn’t arrange to go on an UV unless already invited to something. All the OVs were arranged fairly early in late August early Septemer. We couldn’t attend junior days so only did UVs that summer then OVs.

  1. On staying in touch yes of course! this is easy to do by email and they are interested in the progress.
  2. We did not use consultants.

What surprised me most was that in arranging the OVs the schools didn’t mind 2 occurring.All knew each other was recruiting many of the same kids, so sometimes he’d do 2 OVs over an extended weekend. Thereby the schools split the cost of the flight one pays incoming the other outbound. Be VERY upfront about this - I was worried they would not like the recruit using the flight in to additionally go check another place after which had to be seen on an OV. But they were fine with this all knew about it and all coordinated amazingly. I emphasize THE COSTS ARE SPLIT and the recruit is upfront. DS combo’d 4 this way and did a single another weekend. It was a lot of time taken that fall.

The most difficult part is after the visit having the talk with school of choice where you have to get confirmation you’ll get support where they will ask AO for a LL. It all worked out but my anxiety level was through the roof. After OVs DS wanted only the place he ultimately ended up at and we of course wanted that for him.

Each school has its own way of doing things - the rowers know the coaches, they know other students and I’d recommend they get as much of that information as possible. They can learn a lot on an OV from their host.

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Thanks @oldladyandmom. The comment about sharing costs is very, very helpful. I’m sure it felt a little odd at first, but from the team’s perspective, they are happy to save money on their own recruiting budgets. Your comments prompt two questions:

  1. Did any of the coaches offer an LL, or was it part of a back and forth, e.g., "We will give you a LL if you commit to apply early?"
  2. May I ask, since you already went through the process, what was the one thing you would do differently - what questions do you wish you had asked, but didn't?
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Again this in rowing not other sports and my experience is chiefly the ivies - The 2 exchanges really end up happening as part of one conversation - that is the student’s commitment to apply early and the coach’s agreement to go to AO to seek an LL. I, personally, would never commit to apply early unless the other promise had been made or was being made at the same time. Just us, but that is the way we are- I’m not a leap-of-faither on something as important as that. I would never apply EA or ED on the hope the coach might later try to get a LL or vaguely talk about support. They would have to agree and tell student they were going to, for sure, try. I say “try” because I have no idea what really happens with the coach inside the AO in terms of the coach’s ability to get a LL. I trust them to ask in good faith but that at the end of the day it’s the AO. I’m really not sure if some coaches can tell AO to give a LL. The LL is after all from AO not the coach.

Normally, as well, this only happens after the coach has had a preread of marks, test scores, to know that even apart from being a recruit, you are a viable candidate in terms of could be admitted as a non recruited student. This means excellent grades, standardized tests scores, refs, the whole package. The AO won’t have to hold their nose while approving the student for a LL. The coach knows if there is a good shot when going to AO that a LL would be forthcoming if the student puts in an application.

If the coach can’t or won’t do that, I’d keep conversations happening with other coaches, the second choice etc.
All of this process is as well school dependent. People understandably and justifiably hold their cards very close to their chest during this process.

We had no unasked questions and wouldn’t do anything different. That’s why I think CC is great!

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Thanks again - and remember, this thread is just for rowers! Other sports may, and often do, have their own timetables.

If I hear you correctly, these calls over the summer were pressing your son to make some kind choice - was it to “verbally” commit, even before his OV, or just to come have on OV?

Also, did they ask for this “verbal commitment” as a condition of having the AO do the pre-read? Several coaches have already asked DS for his transcript and test scores, so presumably they are already getting some idea of whether the kid meets their standards, even though it’s fall of junior year.

I’m also curious how many kids got LLs before ED (or SCEA), and how many after. My impression is that coaches do what they can to have all their slots filled for ED/SECA, but there have to be some cases where a kid decides at the last minute to go somewhere else; if that happens after Nov. 1, presumably the coach then has an LL he can send to someone else, for RD. Any experiences with that?

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I wouldn’t verbally commit for a OV - again those are for the rower to check out the campus the team and see if he likes it - not sure about LLs in the regular admission

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@oldladyandmom is correct! I’d never let my son commit for an OV but I’ve never heard of any reputable coach suggesting that. Although I have heard of coaches saying they would support a ED/EA applicant without having seen the kid at a OV. This is obviously more risky for the applicant as they are going into a commitment somewhat “blind” not getting that up close and personal look at the team and coach.

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“committing” means nothing before an OV, unless the coach is requiring an ED application before the visit. The student says “I’m committed” and the coach wouldn’t even know if the student could be admitted, never mind is admitted. I’d recommend being honest with the coaches, tell them the other schools you are considering because they will find out. Everyone knows what other schools you are looking at as the coaches all talk to each other.

Rowing recruiting is a little different since for men it is not an NCAA sport and the same recruiting rules do not apply, and the teams often compete with schools from other divisions so deciding D1, D2, or D3 may not matter as much for the athletic side of the decision as it does in other sports. I’m not sure if the schools include the rowing team in the total number of slot/tips the school can take or even how the funding works for the team.

For women’s crew, it’s different as it is an NCAA sport and there are a lot of scholarships available if the sport is fully funded at the school. We had 4 girls sign the year my daughter graduated. All committed early in the fall and all 4 signed NLI in Nov., probably just after an OV. All 4 went to big flagships, not to New England colleges/Ivy/West Coast, so the process was similar to what any athlete going to a D1 school would follow.

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Thanks @twoinanddone - on the topic of telling the coaches the other schools being considered, DS felt a little awkward when some questionnaires asked for what looked like a ranked list of other schools - one, two, three.

Rowing magazine had some great stats on how quickly women’s crew has grown and continues to grow. Good for them! On the mens’ side, FWIW, the coaches all still refer to NCAA regs as limiting what they can do before July 1, and at least one Ivy recruiting questionnaire acknowledgment message states, “Thank you for submitting the questionnaire. We will contact you as soon as NCAA regulations permit.”

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This is a very informative thread. My son is a senior - not a recruit, but is interested in maybe walking on as a lightweight in college. Does anyone have an idea what a realistic 2k time is for someone to be a viable walk-on?

His PR is just a second or two over 7:00 and crew here is a one-season sport, so I think he could make some progress with year-round participation. Also, he’s fully grown at 5-foot-10 and 150 lbs, and rows both sides, so maybe he could be useful in offsetting some recruited 160-pounders.

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@baltimoreguy You’ll hear everyone say that ‘coaches welcome walk-ons’, and I’m sure that’s true. Bear in mind, however, the coaches also have some serious winnowing in the fall season, in the form of very rigorous training, to find out who is really committed to the team. If your son puts in that hard work, however, he should find a place on the team, regardless of his erg score.

To put it another way, the serious training will very likely drop his time significantly - how much, no one knows, but since lightweight rowing is more about technique than heavyweight rowing, the coach is probably going to be more interested in his technique and “ability to move the boat” than his erg score, in any event.

That said, you might look at the size of the lightweight team at the schools he is thinking of attending, and ask the coaches. The good news for lightweights, in the East at least, is that there are some very sizable teams - a few schools even have more lightweights than heavies. But there are differences.

Harvard and Princeton seem to have the largest programs, fielding as many as six 8s for some regattas (I’m including the “freshman” 8s at Harvard). At the Princeton Chase this fall, Penn’s lightweights entered five 8s, and Cornell also has raced five 8s in some seasons. Here are the results from the Princeton Chase, and you can see the multiple crews entered as “A”, “B”, “C”, etc: http://results.regattatiming.com/backoffice/webpages/staticRaceResults.jsp?raceId=392

It’s simply not possible that all those boats were filled with recruits - and of course some recruits drop the sport, so there had to be a significant number of walk-ons in those crews.

By contrast, some other EARC schools have distinctly smaller rosters, and some enter just two eights, or even just an 8 and a 4, in some regattas. So the real question is, do those numbers reflect some policy limiting the team size, or do they simply reflect the level of student interest (i.e., very few walk-ons)?

One interesting example is Dartmouth women’s rowing this fall - their web page shows 25 freshmen (compared to 36 upperclasswomen). How many of them will stick with it, who knows, but one would figure the coach is thrilled to have that many people turn out, and isn’t turning away anyone who is willing to stick with the training.

My suggestion is that your son call or email the coaches at the schools he’s looking at, and ask the question directly - not “will I make the team?”, but simply “do you have a cap on the roster, and how many walk-ons do you typically have each year?”. Email the freshman or assistant coach, who handles recruiting. I would expect them to give you a straight answer; they have no interest in doing otherwise.

If you do ask them, please let us know what you hear back!

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Thanks for this very helpful post @wykehamist

As a non-recruit, my son is making his list of preferred colleges based on academics, community, etc. He feels like rowing would be an extra, if he could do it all, so he’s just going to wait and see where he gets in and then reach out to the coach afterward. That being said, a few of the schools at the top of his list have “C” entries in those lightweight 8s, so it seems like there would probably be room for him if he sticks with it. Thanks again!

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@baltimoreguy: When my son was a freshman at Yale (HW), the coaches had the upperclassmen on the team out in the freshman quad on move-in day, scouting for tall guys who they could talk in to walking on the team. So yes, I think he’ll find it pretty easy to walk on to most teams, though as wykehamist suggests, walk-ons don’t all make it through the first year. It’s not that the teams try to wash them out; it’s just a significant time commitment and a lot tougher (at least for my son) than high school rowing.

@wykehamist: I just asked my rower and he said he thinks the average recruit 2k is under 6:20, but that it depends on grades (that is, guys with high AI’s can get away with higher 2k’s)

I think an elite/serious summer camp can be an important part of the recruitment process. Certainly, for HYP, the U.S. Rowing Camps play a big role. We didn’t use consultants and have no regrets. The best advice came from coaches; some of the college coaches were great about giving my oldest training advice.

If it’s feasible, unofficial overnight visits junior year are a great, pressure-free way to observe team dynamics, meet coaches, etc. I strongly recommend them.

The basic recruiting timeline/process was (beginning junior fall)
(1) emails directly to coaches with 2k time, and brief athletic and academic background; they skipped sites like berecruited and even the athletic recruitment forms at particular colleges in most cases.
(2) emails back from interested coaches setting up calls;
(3) continued calls/emails with requests for an academic pre-read/test scores;
(4) unofficial visits from coaches or to schools;
(5) offers of OVs (officially offered in the summer, though discussed earlier). Because my kids were limited by their schools to three visits, they asked how they stood in the recruiting field before committing to OVs and were told they were in the top heap.
(6)They went on OV’s in September and the first week of October.

(7) Slots offered on their OVs (some recruits were not offered slots until later).
(8) Once they completed all of their OVs, they took a couple of days and committed.

(9) Both got likelies in October. My sense is that at Ivies, the likely process is largely wrapped up before the EA deadline, in October and November.

Hope that’s helpful!

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Thanks @classicalmama Your posts are always helpful to read. You were clear, but just to reiterate - the 2k time of 6:20 is for heavyweight men; tell me if you think otherwise, but my impression is that, in terms of “what are the coaches looking for?”, that time is probably equivalent to the 6:35 target for lightweight men, mentioned above.

Anyone care to post some information about womens’ recruit times?

One other question about the pre-reads, for you or whomever can chime in: son has already been asked for transcripts by several coaches. I’m wondering when one gets feedback on the transcript, and how direct or indirect it is. We’ve heard that coaches tend to be straightforward if the adcom feedback is negative - “sorry, you need to get your grades up to __ level.”

My question is, how early do they provide that feedback, and how direct or indirect is it? Put differently, if a coach who gets a student’s transcript continues with personal messages, and/or invites the kid for an unofficial visit, without mentioning the transcript or saying anything about “need to get your GPA up”, does that mean there was

(1) some initial positive feedback from the adcom, though of course very tentative, or

(2) the coach’s own review of the transcript suggests the kid is admissible, depending on how much the coach wants him/her, but no adcom feedback, or

(3) none of the above?

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@tonymom can answer the question about LW men’s times more accurately than I.

As far as academic pre-reads go, I imagine it differs from one school to another, but in general, the initial look at the transcript/test scores is by the coaches, though they may run some informally by admissions.

As my older son pointed out to me when my younger son was going through this process, these coaches have been at this for a long time and have seen hundreds of recruits through the process. They know what will scores/grades admissions wants.

So, yes, they’ll often tell a recruit to aim for ___ on the ACT or SAT or to keep their grades up before any formal review by admission. “Need to keep your GPA up” means “Your transcript is fine, but don’t assume you’re in and start sliding!” The admissions pre-read doesn’t usually happen until later in the recruitment process, after the coaches have winnowed their lists and are firming up who to invite for OVs. But I’d be surprised if the coaches’ earlier assessment of the recruit isn’t right 99 percent of the time.

Correction to my post #15: in step 3, I should have said requests for a transcript/test scores. This can happen very early but will often happen again in the summer before senior year–when the pre-read by admissions is generally done.

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@wykehamist - The best way to find out what you what to know is to ask the coach directly. If the recruit isn’t sure the pre-read has been completed yet, then something simple like asking how long the pre-read process normally takes should suffice to get the conversation rolling. In my opinion if a recruit gets a couple of personal messages with no mention of the pre-read, then it’s time to ask. Good luck!

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Anything sub 6:30 for lightweight men will garner attention. I’d add that for highly selective schools you will need the academics to pass the pre-read as well. Also my son made the point that where crazy fast erg scores are prized in HW programs, ltwt programs will also be looking close at technique and “boat feel”. The ability and athleticism on lightweight teams seems to be more evenly distributed.
I can’t speak to women’s programs tho…