New question: how soon should a rising Jr post an ACT/SAT score? We were talking to an SAT tutor who suggested our son would do better on the ACT and that he should perhaps skip the PSAT in the fall that all the juniors generally take, so that he could post a single, strong score on the ACT in the spring. That feels weird. Are coaches expecting to see a fall score, and would they think he has something to hide if he doesn’t take it? He did “fine” on the 10th grade PSAT, but he won’t be NMF which is kind of the point of the PSAT as I understand it. I realize that most of the recruiting, from what I am reading here, occurs a bit later in the game than some other sports. So if he doesn’t take a standardized test until spring of Junior Year - is that fine? It makes me anxious somehow.
Coaches don’t care if you take the ACT/SAT 20 times, as long as one of the scores is good enough for that school. If an early score is low and you think it might keep the coach for continuing recruiting, then don’t report that score.
I wouldn’t skip the PSAT.
I was told by 3 Ivy coaches that for athletes, admissions doesn’t care if you take the test 20 times (this may not apply to all schools, but I’m guessing they all take a similar position). They just care about your highest score or superscore, depending on the school. S was encouraged by one coach to take both the ACT and SAT as many sittings as possible until he posted a satisfactory score. All 3 coaches wanted him to take test this fall. I guess if you think it will be so bad it will scare them off, I would wait. Otherwise I would take it. There are different considerations sometimes for athletes, I think this is one of those cases.
ok - thanks for at least validating my feeling that it was weird to skip the PSAT. He was in the 95% for the reading but not as strong on the math (10th grade version) so I don’t think he will be horribly low.
And I have thought of another question too - some of the schools my son is interested are really good club teams. And I understand they aren’t funded by the schools, so what do the rowers pay for a college club team? Do they tend to pay their own travel when it involves a airline flight? I am sure it varies by school to some degree. An east coast club team school might travel mostly by car/bus, but a school like Michigan is club and they must fly most of the time.
It’s important to have some standardized test scores by winter of junior year, so that the coaches that he/she is emailing with in the spring can gauge the kid’s chances.
At the same time, even if his scores are good, coaches will ask if he is taking the exams again, and may expressly urge him to keep doing so - even after reporting that he passed the pre-read with Admissions. Why? Late in the process, a very experienced coach explained:
“We ask guys to keep taking standardized tests in fall of senior year because we want to avoid having Admissions think the kid is an “entitled athlete” who thinks he doesn’t have to keep trying, just because he’s passed the pre-read and been told to expect a likely letter. They really, really hate that. So it doesn’t matter whether he re-takes the SAT and gets the same score, or if he takes more SAT IIs - the key thing is to keep trying, to show Admissions he’s not taking anything for granted.”
[Sad, of course, that Admissions offices feel they need to gauge the applicant’s sense of entitlement by whether they are taking more standardized tests, as opposed to buckling down on their class work, but that’s another thread.]
As for the rowing clubs’ resources, I think some of them do have some funds - and of course alumni may donate boats or equipment - but it’s just not on a par with the varsity teams. I think you’ll need to check with each club about the rowers’ financial obligations.
It’s hard to categorize men’s teams as they aren’t NCAA varsity teams. Many have private funding, do have scholarships through the athletic departments, do get a bump for admissions even if only ‘club’, and do get some school funding.
But it is a good question to ask during recruiting. My niece played a club sport at school and it had a price tag of about $700/sem (and some fund raising requirements). Other schools have $5000 participation fees. Usually that does include travel, but you’d be surprised how often that travel is by bus, or they’ll travel to an area and play 4-5 games in a weekend.
@twoinanddone, did you say one may have to pay $5000 to play on a club team, and not that its funded through private funding/endowments? Assuming same, how would someone on financial aid ever be able to play a club sport?
Yes, the club lacrosse teams in the west might charge that. The teams have to pay for coaches, trainers, travel, refs, uniforms and most don’t get that much from the universities. It might depend on if they are splitting the costs among 20 club members or 40 as to what their participation fees are. It’s not a qualified educational expense so isn’t eligible for FA. Michigan rowing might have more sponsors than Colo State lacrosse.
My daughter played club hockey. It was $150 per semester - by far the cheapest I’d ever paid for her to play hockey. The school was very generous in subsidizing the club. Not all schools are.
@twoinanddone, sad that those on FA would be closed out of an opportunity to play - glad my xc/track DD’s only additional cost is running shoes - hoping for a sponsor to offset that cost!
question: son is rising senior. Most of coaches he’s communicating with are from private D1 schools (one is club school). Son has handled a lot of this on his own. Unfortunately as we get further along in process, his dad is panicking about tuition–this, combined with dad’s poor social skills, often leads dad to make inappropriate recommendations on pretty much everything! His dad intervened today, helped son compose emails to most of coaches saying that our estimated family contribution is x amount, leaving a $20-25k difference between what we can pay vs what the school expects us to pay (these are schools with combined tuition and room/board costs of $60-65k). Flat out asked for gigantic scholarship in these emails. Emails were sent to coaches before I was able to read and edit. Now I’m concerned that doors are going to slam shut from most/all of these coaches–not only because they don’t have that kind of scholarship money, but because this was a pretty aggressive way to ask for money, and son comes off as only seeing recruitment as a financial transaction. Any suggestions on how my son could recover from what I perceive to be damaging emails? We do need quite a bit of financial help, but it seems like this could have been approached with more finesse…
@sparklepony, unfortunately probably a bad move as demanding xx scholarship $ when rowing is never a full ride will make coaches feel its unsolvable and they’ll likely move on…maybe your DS can somehow explain that what he really meant to say was that was there is an anticipated family contribution gap and he would welcome suggestions of sources - athletic scholarship, merit scholarship, work study, etc…
Sorry to hear this, because it sounds too abrupt. If it helps, since you’re in the summer before senior year, it’s not off base to ask about scholarships, from schools that may offer them (obviously not Ivies). In your son’s case, though, I would have him call ASAP - not send another email - starting with the coaches with whom he feels he has the best relationship, and tell them honestly what’s going on. If he can’t do that, then you’ll hear back from the coaches anyway, probably pretty soon.
Should also add, for women’s rowing in particular, there actually can be detailed discussions with coaches about what kind of scholarships the students can get. Top women’s rowers can, and do, bargain around for the best scholarship offers (again, from non-Ivies).
I’m of the opinion (but full disclosure I ain’t there yet) that money discussions are best left until the very end and after a school is very interested in your kid. You might actually cut yourself short by coming in with a figure upfront. I negotiate tech equipment for a living and my strategy is to always show interest then hang back for a while and let them court you. Then you have the upper hand. Much like buying a car.
yes, this was our strategy–now i think he’ll have to go into damage control and call the coaches to clear this up. if some of the coaches are no longer interested, it’s ok. live and learn…
@wykehamist: thanks, i’m going to mention this to my son and see if he’ll call the coaches. there are 2 in particular who he’s already met in person, and one who he really clicked with. i’d hate for him to blow his relationship with that coach prematurely.
I found it best to ‘play dumb’ and there really wasn’t much acting involved. I’d say “can you explain how the financial aid works? I’ve talked to so many people and every school seems to be different.” Many weren’t willing (or able) to discuss it. One outright said she doesn’t give money to freshmen (we don’t go to that school). Some said to talk to FA. The school she goes to is the one where the coach was the most direct (“I have $XX to offer, and she’ll get a merit award of $ZZ”) The coach was new to the state so didn’t know about state money or prepaid tuition plans.
Sparklepony, I don’t think it will put off the coaches too much. They know what they can offer, and I think they are used to parents expecting a lot more than they can offer.
There are a lot of things at colleges that are too expensive for kids to take part in, and club sports is sometimes one of them. Sororities in the south can be $5000 per year. Ski clubs, boating clubs, dance troupes can all cost money. Some kids can’t participate in sports because they have to work and don’t have the time.
You’ll find you get to pay for a lot more than shoes. My daughter is lucky and the coach pays for almost everything —but cleats! She bought them cleats the first year but so many of them complained that they didn’t like them that the coach decided to have them get their own. Have to say my daughter was ‘a complainer’ and buys her own at $150/pr.
Parents still get hit up for money for ‘travel snacks’ and ‘post game tailgates’ and fund raisers, coaches’ gifts, t=shirts and sweatshirts (for the parents), water bottles. And pre-wrap and socks. The coach doesn’t provide socks or the spanky pants they need for under their skirts.
The first day of school, I got an emergency call (I was still at the hotel) that she needed a hand towel for the weight room. The school doesn’t supply towels.
Thanks for this.
Update: oddly enough, my son being a little too direct separated the wheat from the chaff–he immediately heard back from 3 coaches, one of those a school that is his #1 pick. All 3 want to talk to him on the phone, and were very reassuring about assistance and probable OV’s. He hasn’t heard a peep from the other 3…son isn’t bothered by this in the least, which is good! At least it’s helping him to narrow down the list, and he still has some great choices. He’s getting more and more savvy about how to handle himself with coaches, so hopefully will be a little more tactful about the financial discussions in the future.
I have to say that this has been a HUGE learning experience for my son. I think he’s grown up a lot in the last two months of handling most of the recruiting process on his own. Sort of like interviewing for 8 jobs at once! It’s a lot of juggling, and I’m pretty impressed. I’m not sure I could have done it when I was 17!
Sorry to add so late to this thread, but the class of 2018 thread does not seem sufficient. My daughter (senior) verbally committed to a D1 school for lightweight rowing in early September. She plans to apply early decision. Her academics are not the greatest though so how important are senior year grades? could this be a make it or break it scenario? and by what point does her grades need to be good? Please advise!
OK, so she verbally committed to the school, but
(1) What did the coach say to her about grades, and her chances of admission, either at the pre-read stage, or at the commitment stage a month ago?
(2) Where is she in the likely letter process?
and, sorry to add,
(3) What is your back-up plan?
Pre-reads often come with some basic feedback from Admissions - as one coach put it, “green light” for kids who easily meet the school’s admissions standards, “yellow light” for kids who are closer to the line - those kids can still be recruited, and admitted early, but it’s a signal to the coach that they better really want to use a recruiting slot on that athlete, and a reminder to the athlete to keep taking challenging classes, and keep working as hard as they can. (There’s also “red light”, of course, but if that had happened, she would not have been invited for an OV.)
So the first question is whether the coach shared any comments on that topic, either over the summer or when your daughter committed.
Next, let’s look at where she is now: Admissions committees (or sub-committees) start meeting in early Oct., and vote to issue likely letters to recruited athletes. For “yellow light” applicants, Admissions may do a “call for grades” on the applicant’s progress to date - literally calling the school, asking for any interim grades in their classes. This can almost seem unfair, since the kid has probably missed several days of classes being on those OVs, but that’s how it is (and Admissions is aware of that fact). Sometimes Admissions will defer a vote on the likely letter until they see the applicant’s first quarter grades. That’s OK, as long as she’s not missing the chance to apply somewhere else (which prompts question 3, above) Admissions may may also ask for fall standardized test scores: SAT/ACT, or SAT IIs. (And, as I’ve mentioned above, I heard of one guy who got a likely letter in the fall, but was then deferred a few weeks, until his December grades came in - though once those were received, he was promptly admitted.)
I can’t say how common these situations are, but they definitely happen to some number of kids each year. This is why it’s so important for the recruit to be in touch with the coach, AFTER committing - she should let them know what classes she is taking (sometimes the coaches ask), and how it’s going. If the coach has decided to offer her a slot, the coach will be happy to advocate for her with Admissions.
Offsetting all that stress-inducing information, perhaps, is the fact that “yellow light” cases are where the rest of the student’s application can be decisive - not just the essay, but the other recommendations, ECs, and of course the admissions interview. It sounds like a cliche - because it is - but Admissions really wants to see kids who will contribute to the college community, apart from rowing. Those contributions can be in ways other than getting straight As in college. If someone got a “yellow light” or its equivalent on the pre-read, but then really impressed everyone on the OV, and/or submitted a compelling application, and/or came across as an interesting person in the interview, Admissions can decide they really want the kid, and give them the likely letter, without further ado.
One last thing - remember, at this point, it’s OK for you as the parent to talk to the coach directly. Notwithstanding everything I (and others) wrote up above about how parental involvement earlier in the process is a big no-no, it really is OK once the coaches have made the offer. Especially if there’s a concern about grades, they will understand why you as the parent are asking them directly, and they will tell you what they know - of course, they may say “I wish I knew for certain, it’s up to Admissions”, but even then, you as an adult can pick up things from how they describe the situation, which your daughter might not pick up. So by all means, do call, and have a candid conversation.
Good luck!